Same-Sex Marriage: 3 Big Mistakes

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Politicians might try to steamroll same-sex marriage into law, but there are still some key questions.

Editor’s Note: Same-sex marriage continues to be a prominent issue in our society today. As church leaders, the way we engage the discussion is critical. In this post, Phil Moore, pastor of Everyday Church in London, offers insight on how the issue has been wronlgy framed. Our desire is to create a rich discussion in the comment section below. Has the same-sex issue been hijacked by political lobbyists? How should the church approach the issue? 

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If you believe the newspapers then it’s already been decided. The fight to legalize same-sex marriage has already been won.

Prime Minister, David Cameron, introduced a bill to the British Parliament, which will be debated on February 5, that is not being opposed by the opposition.

President Obama has used his second inauguration speech to signal that he also intends to legalize gay marriage in the U.S. through federal law.

The French President, Francois Hollande, has dismissed public protests over his support for same-sex marriage as the reactionary chattering of the no-longer-radical bourgeoisie.

But while politicians steamroll their proposals into law, they are ignoring some fundamental questions. Let me point out just three of the big mistakes that they are making:

Mistake #1: Everybody Knows That Same-Sex Marriage Should be Legalized.

Suppose we held a referendum that revealed this statement to be true. Suppose the majority of Britons and Americans actually did believe that same-sex marriage should be legalized — would that therefore make it right?

If the majority of Afghans voted that women should be barred from education, they wouldn’t therefore be right. When the majority of British people voted in the early 19th century that there was nothing wrong with slavery, campaigners didn’t stop arguing that the majority was wrong.

In fact, the essence of the pro-gay argument is that majority opinion has been wrong in the past on the issue of sexuality! Even in the purest of democracies, it is accepted that the majority opinion should be tested rather than turned into hastily drafted law. Consensus has long been the refuge of rascals, who attempt to stifle debate by claiming that the matter has already been decided.

What is becoming clear, anyway, is that the majority of people do not in fact back this major change to society.

Although the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, argued in last Sunday’s issue of The Times that redefining marriage will be a vote-winner for the conservatives, the real noise at the conservative head office is that of the large numbers of Tories who feel betrayed that this legislation was not in the party’s election manifesto. The British Youth Parliament has called on the government to drop gay marriage as a priority. In scenes reminiscent of the days before the war with Iraq, we are watching politicians make decisions without consulting those who elected them, only to regret their hastiness too late afterwards.

Phil Moore Phil leads Queens Road Church in Wimbledon. He also serves as a Bible teacher and evangelist within the Newfrontiers family of churches. He is the author of the “Straight to the Heart” series of devotional commentaries. Phil is married to Ruth and they have three young children. Together, they love eating strange and exotic food, watching movies with lots of popcorn, and reading books by Roald Dahl.

More from Phil Moore or visit Phil at http://www.philmoorebooks.com/

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  • Pastor Austin

    Holiness

    by J.
    C. Ryle

    III. HOLINESS

    “Holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.”-Heb. xii.
    14.

    The text which heads this page opens up a subject of deep importance.
    That subject is practical holiness. It suggests a question which demands the
    attention of all professing Christians-Are we holy? Shall we see the Lord?

    That question can never be out of season. The wise man tells us,
    “There is a time to weep, and a time to laugh-a time to keep silence, and
    a time to speak” (Eccles. iii. 4, 7); but there is no time, no, not a day,
    in which a man ought not to be holy. Are we?

    That question concerns all ranks and conditions of men. Some are rich
    and some are poor-some learned and some unlearned-some masters, and some
    servants; but there is no rank or condition in life in which a man ought not to
    be holy. Are we?

    I ask to be heard to-day about this question. How stands the account
    between our souls and God? In this hurrying, bustling world, let us stand still
    for a few minutes and consider the matter of holiness. I believe I might have
    chosen a subject more popular and pleasant. I am sure I might have found one
    more easy to handle. But I feel deeply I could not have chosen one more seasonable
    and more profitable to our souls. It is a solemn thing to hear the Word of God
    saying, “Without holiness no man shall see the Lord.” (Heb. xii. 14.)

    I shall endeavour, by God’s help, to examine what true holiness is, and
    the reason why it is so needful. In conclusion, I shall try to point out the
    only way in which holiness can be attained. I have already, in the second paper
    in this volume, approached this subject from a doctrinal side. Let me now try
    to present it to my readers in a more plain and practical point of view.

    I. First, then, let me try to show what true practical holiness is-what
    sort of persons are those whom God calls holy.

    A man may go great lengths, and yet never reach true holiness. It is not
    knowledge-Balaam had that: nor great profession-Judas Iscariot had that: nor
    doing many things-Herod had that: nor zeal for certain matters in religion-Jehu
    had that: nor morality and outward respectability of conduct-the young ruler
    had that: nor taking pleasure in hearing preachers-the Jews in Ezekiel’s time
    had that: nor keeping company with godly people-Joab and Gehazi and Demas had
    that. Yet none of these was holy! These things alone are not holiness. A man
    may have any one of them, and yet never see the Lord.

    What then is true practical holiness? It is a hard question to answer. I
    do not mean that there is any want of Scriptural matter on the subject. But I
    fear lest I should give a defective view of holiness, and not say all that
    ought to be said; or lest I should say things about it that ought not to be
    said, and so do harm. Let me, however, try to draw a picture of holiness, that
    we may see it clearly before the eyes of our minds. Only let it never be
    forgotten, when I have said all, that my account is but a poor imperfect
    outline at the best.

    (a) Holiness is the habit of being of one mind with God, according as we
    find His mind described in Scripture. It is the habit of agreeing in God’s
    judgment-hating what He hates-loving what He loves-and measuring everything in
    this world by the standard of His Word. He who most entirely agrees with God,
    he is the most holy man.

    (b) A holy man will endeavour to shun every known sin, and to keep every
    known commandment. He will have a decided bent of mind toward God, a hearty
    desire to do His will-a greater fear of displeasing Him than of displeasing the
    world, and a love to all His ways. He will feel what Paul felt when he
    said,”I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (Rom. vii.
    22), and what David felt when he said, “I esteem all Thy precepts
    concerning all things to be right, and I hate every false way.” (Psalm
    cxix. 128.)

    (c) A holy man will strive to be like our Lord Jesus Christ. He will not
    only live the life of faith in Him, and draw from Him all his daily peace and
    strength, but he will also labour to have the mind that was in Him, and to be
    “conformed to His image.” (Rom. viii. 29.) It will be his aim to bear
    with and forgive others, even as Christ forgave us-to be unselfish, even as
    Christ pleased not Himself-to walk in love, even as Christ loved us-to be
    lowly-minded and humble, even as Christ made Himself of no reputation and
    humbled Himself. He will remember that Christ was a faithful witness for the
    truth-that He came not to do His own will-that it was His meat and drink to do
    His Father’s will-that He would continually deny Himself in order to minister
    to others-that He was meek and patient under undeserved insults-that He thought
    more of godly poor men than of kings-that He was full of love and compassion to
    sinners-that He was bold and uncompromising in denouncing sin-that He sought
    not the praise of men, when He might have had it-that He went about doing
    good-that He was separate from worldly people-that He continued instant in
    prayer-that He would not let even His nearest relations stand in His way when
    God’s work was to be done. These things a holy man will try to remember. By
    them he will endeavour to shape his course in life. He will lay to heart the
    saying of John, “He that saith he abideth in Christ ought himself also so
    to walk, even as He walked” (1 John ii. 6); and the saying of Peter, that
    “Christ suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow His
    steps.” (1 Peter ii. 21.) Happy is he who has learned to make Christ his
    “all,” both for salvation and example! Much time would be saved, and
    much sin prevented, if men would oftener ask themselves the question,
    “What would Christ have said and done, if He were in my place?”

    (d) A holy man will follow after meekness, longsuffering, gentleness,
    patience, kind tempers, government of his tongue. He will bear much, forbear
    much, overlook much, and be slow to talk of standing on his rights. We see a
    bright example of this in the behaviour of David when Shimei cursed him-and of
    Moses when Aaron and Miriam spake against him. (2 Sam. xvi. 10; Num. xii. 3.)

    (e) A holy man will follow after temperance and self-denial. He will
    labour to mortify the desires of his body-to crucify his flesh with his
    affections and lusts-to curb his passions-to restrain his carnal inclinations,
    lest at any time they break loose. Oh, what a word is that of the Lord Jesus to
    the Apostles, “Take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be
    overcharged with surfeiting and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (Luke
    xxi. 34); and that of the Apostle Paul, “I keep under my body, and bring
    it into subjection, lest that by any means when I have preached to others, I
    myself should be a castaway.” (1 Cor. ix. 27.)

    (f) A holy man will follow after charity and brotherly kindness. He will
    endeavour to observe the golden rule of doing as he would have men do to him,
    and speaking as he would have men speak to him. He will be full of affection
    towards his brethren-towards their bodies, their property, their characters,
    their feelings, their souls. “He that loveth another,” says Paul,
    “hath fulfilled the law.” (Rom. xiii. 8.) He will abhor all lying,
    slandering, backbiting, cheating, dishonesty, and unfair dealing, even in the
    least things. The shekel and cubit of the sanctuary were larger than those in
    common use. He will strive to adorn his religion by all his outward demeanour,
    and to make it lovely and beautiful in the eyes of all around him. Alas, what
    condemning words are the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians, and the Sermon on the
    Mount, when laid alongside the conduct of many professing Christians!

    (g) A holy man will follow after a spirit of mercy and benevolence
    towards others. He will not stand all the day idle. He will not be content with
    doing no harm-he will try to do good. He will strive to be useful in his day
    and generation, and to lessen the spiritual wants and misery around him, as far
    as he can. Such was Dorcas, “full of good works and almsdeeds, which she
    did,”-not merely purposed and talked about, but did. Such an one was Paul:
    “I will very gladly spend and be spent for you,” he says,
    “though the more abundantly I love you the less I be loved.” (Acts
    ix. 36; 2 Cor. xii. 15.)

    (h) A holy man will follow after purity of heart. He will dread all
    filthiness and uncleanness of spirit, and seek to avoid all things that might
    draw him into it. He knows his own heart is like tinder, and will diligently
    keep clear of the sparks of temptation. Who shall dare to talk of strength when
    David can fall? There is many a hint to be gleaned from the ceremonial law.
    Under it the man who only touched a bone, or a dead body, or a grave, or a
    diseased person, became at once unclean in the sight of God. And these things
    were emblems and figures. Few Christians are ever too watchful and too
    particular about this point.

    (i) A holy man will follow after the fear of God. I do not mean the fear
    of a slave, who only works because he is afraid of punishment, and would be
    idle if he did not dread discovery. I mean rather the fear of a child, who
    wishes to live and move as if he was always before his father s face, because
    he loves him. What a noble example Nehemiah gives us of this! When he became
    Governor at Jerusalem he might have been chargeable to the Jews and required of
    them money for his support. The former Governors had done so. There was none to
    blame him if he did. But he says, “So did not I, because of the fear of
    God.” (Nehem. v. 15.)

    • Michael

      What I have know in this issue is that the politicians are pushing the church to endorse in Satanic practices in the umbrella of freedom. which is harming freedom indeed because if all the world gets into same sex marriage in 50 years how will the world look like? from now. PLEASE CHURCH lets wake up and separate the state from church.

  • MGM46

    Great thoughts on a distressing situation. It is certainly frustrating to see that many Christians are embracing same sex marriage.

    • Michael

      please MGM46 there is nothing in the BIBLE about same sex marriage the people you are seeing embracing $%^%&5 are not real Christians but confusing group.

      • MGM46

        I agree with you that the Bible does not sanction same sex marriage. I agree with you that people that sanction same sex marriage are confused. I will disagree with you that a person could not believe in same sex marriage and be a Christian. A confused Christian, yes, an out of touch Christian, yes, someone that does not know the Bible, yes, but we are saved by believing that Jesus died for our sins and rose again. Can a Christian be confused, most assuredly.

        • rodney

          Christians can be misinformed and make errors in judgment for that reason. There are issues in Scripture that are somewhat ambiguous (for example, a woman’s role in the church) and honest believers can see those issues differently. But the issue of marriage and the matter of homosexuality are not ambiguous in Scripture. I do not see how a believing student of God’s Word could be confused on this issue unless they choose to ignore God’s Word which will break their relationship with God unless they confess.

          • MGM46

            I have to agree that I do not see how a Christian could believe that same sex marriage is OK – but there are also a lot of other things I can’t see about Christians also.

          • Twinsfan1

            MGM46 & rodney, I would suggest reading Thomas Schmidt’s book, “Straight and Narrow?” It show how homosexual theologies are derived from Scripture. However, he also shows how these are erroneous and not true to Scripture, and how we can better understand a truly Scriptural view of sexuality. I found it to be an excellent teaching that helped me understand how people could think Scripture allows same-sex relations. Again, the book does not support homosexual relations – it shows how they come to think Scripture supports it. An great book for believers who want some great teaching about how to respond biblically and lovingly.

          • MGM46

            Not sure how others came to believe what they believe, but I believe what I believe it because the Scripture is very clear to anyone that can read. I have had others try to explain it away, but I think I will just go with the Scripture.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jeanpapy.makuluka Jean Papy Makuluka

          My friend. that’s the problem we have today. we don’t know to define “who is christian?” or what being christian means?” In the Bible the disciple were called christians by others. To be called christian you need to be disciple of christ first. A disciple of christ is a person who learn from Christ. The today christians are not the disciples of christ. They claim to belong to Christ but they don’t learn from Christ. So they are disciples of the devil.

  • Tom Cocklereece

    Regarding point #2, if an autopsy is done 100 years from now on a person who has had “sex change” operation and /or drug therapy, it would show 1) the person had the bone structure and DNA of their gender at their birth. One cannot change gender. Also, for those same sex couples to parent a child, they must yield to natural, and God’s, law of procreation. Thus, they are only changing the laws of man and wreaking havock on the family structure of society.

  • BearFan0819

    I am little disappointed with the article. When I first read the article from London pastor, I was looking forward to hear what he had to say about Same Sex Marriage like Canada and several other countries already have Same Sex Marriage allowed, how do we deal like that? It turned out that the London Pastor is still pursuing and pushing to stop Same Sex Marriage. I do respect his arguments, but reality is… it’s inevitable that we will have Federal Law allowing Gay Marriage just like Canada several years ago. I wish I could hear something from Canada pastor, not London pastor.

    Looks like Christians in America are pursuing cultural war against Same Sex Marriage, I have read from Matt Moore, the Ex-Gay Christian warning that protesting against Same Sex Marriage does not advance the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So our primary mission must be all about JESUS CHRIST as Personal Savior and we are responsible for those lost souls!

    However, I think London pastor had poor comparison of Martin Luther King Jr because I think he don’t practice what he preach: did he committed adultery, if so, does that mean he understand the definition of faithful one-partner marriage?

    I also hear from Argentina that already have Same Sex Marriage law, yet, there is not many Gay Marriages performed after that law was passed so I can expect that to happen in future America, too. There is HOPE!

    Let It Go and LET GOD!

    • Tod Thompson

      We can’t stand up from traditional marriage and still proclaim Christ? The church has always stood with Christ and against the devil. Now you are saying we can share Christ with others while pretending as if everyone’s sin isn’t so bad. If that’s the case why do we need a Savior?

    • rtp000

      I am a Canadian Pastor and I replied right above you. lol

      This is a spiritual battle and the battle is for the hearts, minds and spirits of the individual, not the government or laws. We win by loving people and entering into relationships with them, not by protesting something that makes us look intolerant and unloving even though intolerance is an act of love. As a father I love my daughters, but I will not tolerate certain behaviours that are harmful to them. The church tried to stand in love an be intolerant towards sin, but the homosexual community won a major victory be equating the word intolerance with hatred. Now, they will have the government redefine marriage and the law will come into effect.

      What they fail to see is that God is still sovereign and they are mistaking the mercy and grace Jesus offers now with ultimately what Jesus will pass judgement upon when the time comes. As the Body of Christ, we must pray for those who are elected that they may have true wisdom and Godly discernment, and intercede for those who have not received Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Let the truth be revealed that not all things that feel right are right in the eyes of our sovereign Lord!

  • rtp000

    In Canada the issue is already decided. Same sex marriage is legal and marriage commissioners are required by law to marry such couples. However, our charter of rights also protects religion so churches and Pastors cannot be forced to marry same sex couples.

    Typically Canadian, it’s a compromise and least offensive way to have peace. Unfortunately, it is wrong according to God’s word. The bible may be ambiguous about some things, but it is clear about how God feels about homosexual acts as well as the definition of marriage between a man and a woman. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because their wickedness was brought before God and 10 righteous men could not be found, but let us not forget that a fruit of their wickedness was sexual depravity and homosexuality.

    We as believers are called to test the teaching provided to us against the Word and a church that advocates and marries a same sex couples is deficient in relationship with the Holy Spirit and needs our prayers. Jesus Christ does extend significant mercy and grace in these times, but let us not mistake that for what His final judgement could be. Lord, let us be sensitive to the battle before you, and move us as you command and in your timing!

  • Hal

    Did anyone notice that in today’s March 20, CHURCH LEADERS, Peterson’s article has drawn dozens of comments from both side because it is middle of the road to Satire depending on your position but Same Sex Marriage has limited comments. The MESSAGE is garbage and churches have it in their book stores. Godly Marriage is GODLY and pastors use short sentences and move on the the nest topic lip service to a serious attach on Most Belief Systems. except a 5% group of homosexuals and a whole political system that only looks to re-election.

    What can bring an end to this nonsenses. GOD, CHRIST, HOLY SPIRIT and how can we teach/learn about that? Pastors…….. get out of the stupid message topic sermon routine and START TEACHING THE BIBLE, TRY TEACHING NOT PREACHING and draw people to that want to learn and will SERVE. (novel idea — right?) P.S. Tell the truth about what God says in HIS BOOK . Stop being a chicken.

  • pjsr

    I am disappointed this article does not offer any practical tips for steering conversations in a way that reframes the discussion. Without a means to engage in thoughtful dialogue, this article ends up being little more than a rant against politicians.
    It is is telling us the mistakes ‘they’ make, without any means of us offering another way. With this approach, change is inevitable.

    • Twinsfan1

      pjsr, in another post I mentioned the book, “Straight and Narrow?” by Thomas Schmidt. That is a great tool for just what you’re asking. It’s put out by InterVarsity Press.

  • Duder

    So…in point #1 you are using instances where a group of people’s civil rights had been taken from them to argue against a law that would grant a group of people their civil rights. Your argument is invalid.

    In point #2 you argue that homosexuality is not a civil right. I agree with you to a certain extent. But look at what the consequences will be if it is not recognized as a civil right. You will basically be creating a second class of citizen. One that is allowed to be themselves but only in certain arenas. Kind of like how black people could only sit in certain areas and use certain areas.

    • Winston

      And your thoughts on Point #3? Valid?

    • Steven K. Beckett

      The author is vague but he is arguing that sex and the practice of it, is not a civil right and to equate one (sex) with civil rights (freedom/voting/not being excluded based on color) lessens and even degrades those who gave their life so other could enjoy the God given freedom our constitution guarantees them.

      There are no real serious consequences for not allowing people who chose a gay lifestyle not to marry. The serious consequence comes from allowing it to happen. Who will be next pedophiles? What of the minority group who thinks incest, or many partners? Where will you draw the line? Many already feel and maybe rightly that God has already begin to turn away from America, allowing this will do nothing to show we desire His presence.

      Government is the only real class definer. They force classes on people so they will remain divided. For if the people are truly united they can overcome anything earthly force.
      What we should be doing is through not only our words and actions but how we live our lives, be showing others their true value in God’s eyes, and how when we turn to doing and embracing evil, it is against the very one who can give us life and life abundantly. When we do evil we shun and go against the one who created us as His special treasure.

    • Tod Thompson

      Jesus is crystal clear that marriage is between a man and a woman. For the Christ-follower this settles the issue. I think we have become so consumed with accommodating every proclivity that we will do almost anything to make sure everyone is accommodated.

    • Lud

      Where would the pedaphile sit? I’m not saying homosexuals are pedaphile’s but rather using your logic to make a point. There are moral laws that we accept – these are distinct from civil rights. That is why most Christians who do not hate homosexuals are fine with civil unions but not ok with changing marriage.

  • Steven K. Beckett

    Marriage is not a state institution, it is a God ordained institution. No man has the leverage of power to rightly redefine it. Man may change the laws which govern society, but it is the laws of God that supersede all and by which all will be judged.

    • diamar

      Marriage is very much a state institution and if you go state to state, you will see differences in the statutes that determine marriage. Nevada has drive-thru chapels. We’re not talking about God’s laws here..we’re talking about man’s laws. These people are American citizens, you know, tax-payers. And they are not getting the same rights for their taxes. Often they are cheated out of family things, inheritances, medical access, children…it’s shameful. Surely, you’re not saying they should be exempt from taxes, right? And if marriage is a God ordained institution, why do so many end in disaster? Why is the divorce rate in this Christian country so high?

      Perhaps someday we will all be judged by God’s law, I won’t argue that. But I was told ‘God is Love’. I know many gay people and I think it’s a travesty to say their love isn’t as real as anyone else’s. And as a pastor, I would be honored to officiate a commitment of love, a vow to honor, an oath of these two to love before God til death do they part..and let no man put asunder. And is too will accept God’s will when He judges me in the end.

      • Mike

        I agree with the first part of what you said. For many in the gay community this has more to do w protecting rights, inheritance, property, medical decision authority. I can’t say I love my neighbor while I deny them those rights I enjoy. This can be acheived through government issues civil unions.

        However, marriage was created by God, for 1 man and 1 woman. We can’t let our live for someone excuse them from Gods standards.

      • MGM46

        What you think, what I think, and what the gay community thinks has no bearing on the situation – it is what God thinks that matters – and what He thinks about this situation is recorded in His word.

        The fact that God is love is true, but that does not negate the justice of God

        God’s will is found in His word – as a Pastor you should be thoroughly familiar with His word – are you or is it you just don’t care what it says?

        • Perry Mann

          James 2:13, Mercy triumphs over judgment.. Mercy will triumph, aren’t you glad? Also, who is given the right to pronounce married in the Bible, it is not a listed right or ordinance of the church, nor are there any instruction on how to conduct a marriage. Marriage in the Bible is a state that is recognized by the community. Also, in Corinthians, Paul seems to allow a father to forbid his daughter to marry at all. Is that what we want as a right in the Christian Church?
          Human Sexuality is so confusing, we cannot not give diatribes that prescribe one size fits all.

          • MGM46

            God has already made the judgment for everyone to read. All we have to do is read it and believe it. Yes I am glad that God is merciful. I am also glad he is just. Why don’t you just say, I do not care what the Bible says, I will believe what I want instead of denying what is very clear.

            _____

          • Perry Mann

            because that would be a lie. I care deeply about what the Bible says. And I want to heed the admonition of James 2, to speak and live as one that will be judged by the Royal Law, “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

          • MGM46

            It is good to try and live by the Scripture, but you are confusing what love is. Love is telling someone the truth. If you want to love your neighbor as yourself, why not tell them the truth, and the truth is found in Scripture – not what someone thinks, but what Scripture says. Telling people something is OK when God says it is abomination cannot be pleasing to God. A person would be so much better off to get out of the ministry and not say anything.

          • peter

            What Perry is pointing out in James 2, is this, Social Relatedness and respect, Human worth/Divine Destiny. Human being possess a relationship to one another and to God that no other creature does. To be human is to experience a multitude of social relations. Created in the image of the Heavenly Father. All human beings have an equal value and, by their humanity, are interrelated. Human worth cannot be valued by ethnicity, wealth, social standing, or educational level because all are significant and valuable in God’s order. To regard a race, group, or individual as less important than another is sin in view of the fact that Christ died for all people and for each one in particular. At the foot of the cross, we are equal, both in our worth to God, God sent His Son Jesus to die for each of us and in our need to accept God’s gift of salvation. Let us learn to respect and honor every person regardless of his or her sexuality, station,creed, race, color of skin, Loving people go a lot deeper.

            you have mention; “A person would be so much better off to get out of the ministry and not say anything.” Well, MGM46, I have to say that Jesus have told to his eleven as they sat down to the table, and Jesus rebuked them of their unbelief and hardness of heart. In Mark 16: 14-18, Jesus told them to do the Great commission. As of today on March 22nd of 2013 AD, Jesus is telling us to stay in the Ministry to spread the good news in great zealousness.

          • MGM46

            Jesus died to save us from our sins, not in them. You are confusing things that are sin with things that are not sinful at all. To equate homosexuality with race is absurd.

            It is not the way we regard people that makes a difference, it is the way God regards them, which is clear to anyone that will read what God’s book says.

            God loves all sinners and will save all sinners, but He still hates sin, and as you pointed out sent His Son to die for those sins. That does not mean that we live as we wish, to our own distorted desires, it means we live according to the will of God, as near as we can.

            Have you guys ever really read a Bible?

          • peter

            Yes, i do read the bible with the Holy Spirit guiding my human spirit. For the Holy Spirit is the Great teacher and our Comforter to our human spirit and our human soul.

            you have mention; “A person would be so much better off to get out of the ministry and not say anything.” Well, MGM46, I have to say that Jesus have told to his eleven as they sat down to the table, and Jesus rebuked them of their unbelief and hardness of heart. In Mark 16: 14-18, Jesus told them to do the Great commission. As of today on March 22nd of 2013 AD, Jesus is telling us to stay in the Ministry to spread the good news in great zealousness.

            Here is some scriptures that will give you some understanding. In Romans 1:28 says, And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient”. It is very serious to be given over by God to a reprobate mind as it has eternal ramifications for that person. The modern definition of the word gives a powerful description of a reprobate: A DEPRAVED,VICIOUS, OR UNPRINCIPLED PERSON: ONE WHOSE CHARACTER IS UTTERLY BAD. This mind then is at war with God and hates with a deep seething all that is connected to God. God is an Holy God: therefore the reprobate mind is opposed to all that is holy and righteous.

            Here is a other, Ephesians 4:17-19; This I say therefore,and testify in the Lord,that you henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walking the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened,being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them,because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

          • MGM46

            So, it seems according to what you say, that homosexuality is not and God and is contrary to His word. My thoughts precisely.

          • peter

            Yes, a homosexual can repent and trust Jesus Christ as Savior just like
            any other sinner; however, those that are in deep rebellion against God
            and not just caught in the power of this sin are given over to it. There
            is a huge difference between being under the power of sin and being
            given over to it in judgment by God. A homosexual that is not a
            reprobate is one that knows the act is wrong and is under condemnation.

            In the very first chapter of Genesis 1:26-28. God ordains the union of a man and woman and the family unit. God ordained the marriage between . This was the plan of God from the very beginning: a man and a woman and a family. This plan of God has not changed and no law of man including the Supreme Count of the United States can alter God”s family unit. Here is the words in Genesis, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, according after our likeness….
            !:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him;male and female created he them. 1:28 Then God blessed them,and God said to them “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over…..

          • http://www.facebook.com/jeanpapy.makuluka Jean Papy Makuluka

            Love does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. (1 cor 13:6). About homosexuality, this is the truth: “You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you lived, and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you. You shall not walk in their statutes.
            You shall follow my rules and keep my statutes and walk in them. I am the LORD your God.
            You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.
            You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.” (Leviticus 18:3-5,22)
            If really you love you brother (neighbor), please don’t have sex with him. Love rejoices with the word of God (truth)

          • http://www.facebook.com/jeanpapy.makuluka Jean Papy Makuluka

            thanks. you are right.

          • Steven K. Beckett

            In Genesis God created man, then saw it was not good for him to be alone so he created a woman. In chapter 5 the Word says He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man in the day when they were created. Now if we go back to chapter 1 we read that God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. In Mark 10 Jesus says “But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. Jesus going on speaking of the man and the woman God created He said; “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

            Marriage is a union between a man, a woman and God. And when God is not in the marriage, then guess what, it will more than likely fail.

            You can be merciful and still not tolerate sin as mercy has nothing to do with being tolerant of sin. In Romans, I find Paul to be clear enough that no man has a valid excuse for accepting or teaching something that is contrary.

            Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

            24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For
            they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the
            creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

            26For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
            27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men
            committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due
            penalty of their error.

            28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
            30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

            Now you can talk mercy and neglect to live and teach the truth or you can live mercy and the truth by accepting the person not the sin, and by teaching the person their value in God’s eyes and how this chosen lifestyle is feeble human attempt at doing “thy own will” rather than doing His will, which is sin.

            God loves them, just as He does every murderer, child molester, rapist, tax cheat, porn or drug addict, as much as He love you or me, He loves the world. But we cannot neglect the fact that a day of judgment is coming and it will be harsher for those who teach and teach error than those who reject God directly.

            So, show mercy, teach in community, serving people side by side with people, those who are saved and those who are not and teach them the truth and let God change the hearts.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jeanpapy.makuluka Jean Papy Makuluka

            That’s not right. Human sexually is confusing to those who confuse themselves. Read Romans 1. God is clear about sexuality, it is made for MAN and WOMAN not man and man nor woman and woman. A family is made of father, mother and children not father, father and children nor mother, mother and children. The mercy of God brings repentance. otherwise it is judgement. Don’t forget: the wrath of God exists.

      • Steven K. Beckett

        Marriage was around before the state, it was invented you might say by God, since He is the one who set it before a man and a woman as a way to be joined. The state only has a hand in marriage because it saw a way to make money and another law to expand its reach.
        As to your straw man divorce argument, well breaking up has long been around and many numbers we are told about Christian marriages ending at the same rate as non-christian marriages have been proven wrong. Never the less, even it is true, sinfulness of people does not negate God’s ordaining of marriage, it just proves in one more area how much we need a Savior.

        If you are a minister you are doing an injustice to the Gospel by being honored and willing to perform a ceremony joining two men in a union that God opposes. Not only that you are leading people to embrace a lifestyle that goes against God’s natural order. That is heresy! You are unfaithful to your duty to uphold the Word of God above your own personal opinions.

        My children know as do I several gay folks but no matter what I think, God’s Word and opinion comes first. He does not approve, so neither will I. I will teach them how much God loves them and wishes to fill the void they are trying to fill by these sexual relationships.

        You can know if they get marriage it will not be long before people will want to marry their sisters because they love them, or marry a minor because love knows no bounds.
        Human reasoning is flawed and our desires are corrupt and go against God. And at some point God will not tolerate it any longer and remember as a minister and a teacher, you as well as I and every other preacher will face a stricter judgement for we are responsible for what we teach.

        I feel for you, and will pray for you. I also pray you seek what God’s desire is, before you do something you cannot undo.

      • MisterJay

        You my friend are a charlatan! You are not really a minister of the gospel if you can’t stand by the gospel. You say that you are prepared to bless what God has declared wrong. You are prepared to put yourself on a collision course with damnation because you don’t want to offend anyone. Jesus was clear about what marriage is and you think you are free to disagree? I don’t know where you are pastoring but you shouldn’t be.

      • MisterJay

        On the issue of “God is Love” the issue is that English has only one word for love whereas the Greek has many forms. If you don’t recognise that “Eros” and “Agape” are not the same and so interchange them when declaring that “God is love” to rationalise all shows of affection then you forget another attribute of God which is that He is Holy.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jeanpapy.makuluka Jean Papy Makuluka

        If so, God could not destroy Sodom and Gomorrha. You didin’t finish this : “let no man put asunder IN WHAT GOD HAS UNITED”. Homosexuality is not only a sin but a great sin. that is abomination.

  • TrueFaith

    If you truly believe in God, you know that God is in everything–even in marriage between two women or two men, even in murder, even in the fight for gay marriage and in the fight against gay marriage. A true Jesus Christ follower loves all that God created, and does not judge God’s creations.

    “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5)

    • MisterJay

      What mindless babble! Which version of the Bible is that one in? I don’t mean the out of context quote from Proverbs just everything else. God is in murder? This sounds like transcendental mysticism rather than any Biblical theology.

  • dramdev

    I don’t think man can legislate in affirmation, competition or opposition to what God originally established as marriage between a man and woman. Can we legislate that the day will become night and the night will now be called day? If we did, the facts of God established in creation would still be unaltered. Even so, neither is the true definition of marriage. A marriage is an established part of creation and cannot be changed by people, just as we cannot alter the created seasons or alter time itself. Mankind is simply too small. This is an overreach at best and possible a breech of the separation of church and state. A marriage is a spiritual and therefore religious act and cannot be legislated for or against. It just IS as God intended. A government can only legislate what must civilly accompany the marriage ceremony for purposes in accordance with the laws of the land.

    If this kind of law wrangling is allowed to continue, they may soon make law that Jesus is Lord so that someone else can come along and later declare by law that he is not and perhaps even outlaw his worship. Does anyone else see where this can lead?

    A same sex marriage cannot be embraced because it was not created by God-nor were alternate genders. It is merely a perversion and self-worship by imagined by man, a result of the fallen worldly wisdom thrust upon society by sin ravaged society.

    • Perry Mann

      Then are you going to fight to outlaw divorce? Jesus says very plainly that divorce was not the Father’s plan from the creation. I wish Christians would be consistent. That is why the world mocks us. I would love to hear someone that likes to rail against homosexuals from Romans 1, To keep that same uncompromising fidelity to the literal word of God in Romans 7, that the only release from marriage is death of the partner. Or Matthew 19, adultery is marrying someone who had been divorced.

  • Scott

    I know I’ll get lambasted for this but hear me out…1) I don’t believe that same sex marriage is right. 2) I do believe that same sex relationships are wrong biblically…BUT 1) It IS a civil right because we’ve made marriage a CIVIL ceremony. Marriage, at least in America, is a civil institution…meaning it’s a law thing not a church thing. If that’s the case then it really IS a civil rights issue BY definition. If that’s also the case, why is the church so darn interested in running the laws? Shouldn’t we be more interested in changing the hearts and minds of those around us? If we were less interested in political involvement I’d be willing to bet that we’d see more people around us changed. As it is, the moment I say I’m a Christian or a pastor I’m pigeon holed into right-wing republicanism. Patriotism and Christianity are two different things. And 2) opposition to same sex marriage should be a church thing, not a law thing. My goodness, we have our hands so deep into politics we can’t even raise them out to praise our God. You want the laws changed? Then start at the bottom. Otherwise we all look like jerks.

    In the end, maybe if believers were more interested in tithing to their churches instead of complaining about welfare, loving their neighbors instead of deciding that a civil issue isn’t a civil right and yelling about it, making themselves the least instead of voting their “religion”, and pouring into the hearts and minds around them through love and charity and grace I bet we wouldn’t even have this conversation. The Kingdom of God would be far more widespread.

  • Steven Leapley

    I would like to ask the readers to step back and think of something for a moment and I truyl desire the feedback…..

    For the record: I believe that marriage is a God-made institution and I do not believe in same sex marriage…from a Biblical Jesus follower stance.

    Here is what I would like us to consider: We live in the USA…founded on Christian principles YES…founded with the freedom from one overpowering religious forcing on everyone..YES… So what would happen if the President stood up and said ok America is now going to have a national religion of Islam……. Well, evangelical Christianity would take the President to court standing on the the Constitution of our country that the government cannot force any religion onto anybody… So How do we (Christians in America) have the right to force our religious beliefs on people who do not believe in Jesus?????????

    From a non religious stance..YES same sex people are a civil rights issue…from a religious standpoint same sex people are just as much sinners as someone who kills someone who steals someone who is an alcoholic…..

    So whether you are agree with me or not…..Jesus did not fight sinners with overbearing judgment and forcing Himself on anyone..He LOVED them…they said ‘hey something is different about this guy.’ From an unbelievers stance…they see the church violating their human right to live in a country that allows for freedom……so why don’t we stop being Pharisetical about it and be more Christ-like about it…….. Jesus spoke more harshly towards the religious people than “those sinful people” …. He warmed them about judging others… when we degrade people for their different beliefs than ours we are no different than a Pharisee praying in public showing that he was ‘better than the rest’

    I welcome thoughts
    Steven

    • spm

      I agree with you. I have been saying for a long time that to change people we have to do what Jesus did and talk to people about who He is, instead of sitting in church complaining to each other. Mans laws have never been favorable toward God which is why we need to share the gospel one person at a time. Christians need to get off the porch, onto their feet, out of the shade and into the heat. But as long as we sit and do nothing but complain, we will be overwhelmed by the immorality that runs rampant not only in the world but throughout the Christian community. By the way, if marriage is so sacred to Christians, why is divorce so rampant in the Christian community? Seems like us Christians have already belittled the sanctity of marriage. What was it that Jesus said? Let he who has not sinned cat the first stone? None of this is an excuse for gay marriage, I just challenge Christians to engage in a different fight. One not of flesh and blood.

    • http://www.facebook.com/jeanpapy.makuluka Jean Papy Makuluka

      Bro steven. I want to give answer in three ways. First, You don’t mention that jesus chase away the thieves from the temple. The wrong thing is to ask churches wed the same-sex people. And today that’s what many churches do. We cannot allow the gay people to come and ask to be wedded in church just because you think to love them is what they need. Yes we love the homosexuel but we don’t love homosexuality. We have to preach against it and tell the society how wrong it is. Jesus loves the sinners but not the sin. This is why he told that woman: “Go and sin no more”
      Second, Obama swore hand on the Bible! He claimed to be christian. We need to give some value to the word of God. Have you ever thought about the consequencies of a president going astray from the will of God in the nation? The wrath of God will be on that nation no matter the presence of christian who do not speak against that evil. Obama is the persident not for the same-sex people but for USA. Again he claim to be christian and does what is against the word of God. Which lesson you christians are you giving to the pagans? Can a muslim change to Christ by this attitude? we need a good testimony of our faith.
      Third, as the post says, “marriages make families and families make society”. We speak against the same-sex marriage because our society where we live is affected by the evil virus. If you do not do something against eat, tomorrow your children might be affected. we care about the future of our society. A spoiled fruit spoils the good fruits. We don’t want to compromise!!!!!

  • rodney

    For followers of Christ, THE deciding factor in this issue is Scriptural Truth. It is not ambiguous. It is crystal clear. Genesis and Jesus agree that Marriage is a Covenant between a Man, a Woman, and God. No exceptions. Thus, it is impossible for two people of the same sex to be married. That said, people who struggle with this issue need our prayers and God’s help. RE: biological tendencies as a factor in this matter are probably present in one degree or another in all sinful behavior (pre-marital, extra-marital relationships, addictions, criminal behaviors, etc.). But none of that makes it okay to disobey God. God’s commands include His promises to help us do His will as we cooperate with Him. Is it always easy? No. But God is able to keep us from falling and if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father.

  • Youth Pastor Charles

    I think we have to understand that what gays are for and what Christians are fighting against are 2 very different things.
    Gays are fighting for a legal right that conveys certain legal benefits under civil law.
    Christians are fighting to protect a covenant between God and a couple.

    If it wasn’t for the word marriage being hijacked there would be a lot less animosity surrounding this issue. There are many legal sins, legal same sex marriage wouldn’t be any different than legal fornication.
    Look at how we are winning on abortion. Not through legal challenges but by changing people’s hearts on the issue. If we want to win this issue we have to effect people’s hearts. The only way to do that is to spread the gospel. As long the church lets itself be painted as hateful or bigoted by how we address this issue we shut the door to effective witnessing.
    When dealing with the homosexual agenda I think we will start to make progress when we stop focusing on the sin of homosexuality and instead focus on the fact that we are all sinners in need of a savior and let God deal with the individual sins in a persons life.

    • jturtle2

      If that were the case Charles, (all they want is the legal benefits) — and several others have made that point as well — then civil unions would be enough. It conveys the same rights and benefits, is recognized by the state, and does not involve the church at all. In states where there are civil unions, though, they are still pushing just as hard for MARRIAGE. What many (I would say “most”) of those folks is NOT just legal rights and benefits; NOT just “tolerance” of their relationships; they want approval, and for us to be forced to accept it as a norm.

  • Femi

    Same sex marriage is pure hypocrisy
    Why are they having trying to have children through women?

  • peter

    It seems the collective thought of American is now almost very close to being reprobate.As the nation has turned from God, multitudes of people now live lies and America has become nearly a reprobate nation. If a person accepts or promotes homosexuality, to the Heavenly Father, he is a reprobate. The education,position of power, social standing-including position of religious authority, or wealth, of this person does not matter to the Heavenly Father: He is a reprobate. America has many many reprobates in very powerful positions of authority. There appears to be no let-up from those of a reprobate mind to promote this deadly lifestyle. To those who promote this lifestyle, this issue has become as a religion. Homosexuality looks so normal to the reprobate mind. Following God’s Word brings blessings, health, and long life; following the reprobate mind brings disease, death and destruction.

  • peter

    It seems the collective thought of American is now almost very close to
    being reprobate.As the nation has turned from God, multitudes of people
    now live lies and America has become nearly a reprobate nation. If a
    person accepts or promotes homosexuality, to the Heavenly Father, he is a
    reprobate. The education,position of power, social standing-including
    position of religious authority, or wealth, of this person does not
    matter to the Heavenly Father: He is a reprobate. America has many many
    reprobates in very powerful positions of authority. There appears to be
    no let-up from those of a reprobate mind to promote this deadly
    lifestyle. To those who promote this lifestyle, this issue has become as
    a religion. Homosexuality looks so normal to the reprobate mind.
    Following God’s Word brings blessings, health, and long life; following
    the reprobate mind brings disease, death and destruction.

  • peter

    Those that practice homosexuality are called the children of disobedience, and they will not inherit the kingdom of God. A person does not need a doctorate in theology to understand that homosexuality is a sin that will block a person from the kingdom of God. It’s very clear that a youngster of children can clearly understand this. Then why, is homosexuality being presented as wholesome and loving? The answer is and it lies in that the homosexuals and their advocates have rejected the authority of the Bible. Their own minds have become blinded. There appear to be no fear of the Heavenly Father in them, and the stern warnings of the Bible are ignored or if not outright mocked. The warnings are still clear as they were 2,000 years ago.
    The reason homosexuality is so special is because it is the sign of a reprobate mind. Those who have developed this mind or are in the process of developing a reprobate mind flock to defend and promote homosexuality. In a real way, the promotion of homosexuality can be viewed as the end of the line of rebellion against the Heavenly Father. God in His Mercy holds back judgment,but His Mercy can only last so long until the eventual judgment.

  • MJ

    God created him in his own image, and created male and female, and blessed them.(Genesis 1:26-31. Adam(male and Eve(female) were given everything needed with a stern warning. Sin became our problem through woman who listened to the serpent(the devil). People God is the same yesterday, today and forever. SO…who are we listening to in this so called same sex marriage abominable agenda? This nothing more than the father of lies continuing to keep us in sin, captivity and most of all spiritual bondage. People of God…ride up and begin to cry out to God for mercy.

  • Perry Mann

    Where in my comments was I showing disrespect to the Bible? I do not see that most Christians are being honest about the situations the Bible really discusses. Yes there are homosexual sexual sins, just as there are heterosexual sexual sins, but being married to one person of the opposite sex all of your adult life is not the situation everyone can choose.

    • Steven K. Beckett

      There are not homosexual sins, homosexuality is a sin, period! You are the one not being honest, Scripture plainly says homosexuality, or being a sodomite is sinful and they will not be granted Kingdom access if they continue to do their thing, which God has declared against His natural order. Sin is a choice, you choose to do it the first time and the devil has a toehold, you chose to do it again because it made the flesh feel good, and the devil has a foothold, you choose it again despite the guilty feeling that lingers because the fleshly pleasure was so intense, the devil has a stronghold and you are a slave to that sin.
      Wise up! God loves them sure, we are to love them just like He does, absolutely. But even though He loves them if they do not reject their way for His way they are choosing hell. Love them enough to tell them the truth. Be a man of God and confront sin in love with compassion and patience. Show love to all people but keep warning of the wrath to come! Jesus said if you love Me, you will obey everything I have commanded. Jesus is the Word of God, and as much the Bible is the Word of God. What Paul wrote is the Spirit filled Word of God. Preach it, Teach it, Practice it, Love it, Love Him and love them who are far from Him, bringing them the Light of His Son!

  • Bozzy@brissy

    Hi Phil, I’m sorry mate, but I think the arguments from the original article are sloppy. The 3 “mistakes” are actually 3 points of public discussion – not mistakes. People living in democracies have a right to vote for what they believe, and the marriage equality support is growing amongst straight believers and non-believers alike.

    First up. Why do I think these arguments are sloppy? They don’t really support the points that the you intended to make, rather they were a scattered thought process attempting to support a point of view. To comment on public trends and assume that the discussion topics are “mistakes”, then to not support that position is disturbing. Phil, can you please give us public data supporting your point of view? Waffle about your interpretation of history may display that you have read a few history books, but you have not handled your argument well.

    The first point made is regarding an extreme statement you chose take on. It’s obvious that not everyone knows same sex marriage should be legalised. There are clearly many that oppose it. This was a lazy attempt at making a point, it is just “low hanging fruit”. If Phil really wanted intelligent discussion, perhaps he would have suggested that those that support marriage equality are a small and extreme group of people, and set out to support that statement. Or perhaps a more intelligent question for discussion would be “is there growing or shrinking support for marriage equality?”.

    If that was not the intent of the your first point Phil, perhaps it should of been “How can/should a christian approach the topic of same sex marriage?” This point should then have been filled with scriptural examples to which a christian should behave and how their view can be shaped by scripture. Far to many Church leaders are spouting their own opinion without scriptural clarity on the matter. If you asked a christian leader how one might be “saved” an abundance of scripture should be able to support that matter. I will point out that even with this most fundamental of biblical issues, the global christian body is divided and scriptural evidence is manipulated by denominational differences of opinion.

    As a side thought before I go on, here is one thing that has been bothering me lately. Jesus was a leader. He called people to follow him and he set about leading those who followed him and calling those who did not believe, to repent and accept him. He placed guidelines on those that did follow him, but did not expect those that did not follow to follow his rules. Jesus was not a political lobbyist and actually taught his followers to render unto ceaser that which is caesars. The bible advises christians to be in the world but not of the world. Also to be the light, the salt… Not one of Jesus teachings calls Christians to lobby governments or protest the political systems of the world. Jesus said that he would build his church, not that he would rule the laws of the land.

    My point here is that if a Christian is to follow christ, then why are christians distracted by fighting societies right to change and development? If the bible is as a christian believes it to be, then this matter is hardly a primary issue. Should not salvation be a primary concern? This is of course what Jesus set his life of a cross for. I believe that any christian that is caught up fighting for this issue is distracted, is not following christ and is of little faith that their god is able to do all things

    Here is why I believe that christians go to the battle front to stand against marriage equality.

    1. Hetrosexual christians are uncomfortable with the sexuality of a same sex relationship.

    2. Hetrosexual christians are scared and threatened by the prospect of a life where a gay person has rights. For example, the prospect of gay teachers in a christian school who is legally allowed to tell young adults that homosexual feelings are valid to those who feel that way.

    3. Some christians actually WANT to control public policy because they feel that it is their god given right to tell any person that does not follow their moral code to “fall in line”… aka, “repent”.

    The first two of these issues are legitimate feelings for a christian who believes the bible. The third is an arrogant, stubborn, aggressive and extremist stance against secular society.

    It is totally normal and acceptable to be uncomfortable with another persons sexual relationship. If you are Hetro-sexual and have not experienced homosexual feelings, then the idea of a homosexual relationship or experience is foreign, and even repulsive to you. This is ok, no one is expecting you to relate to a homosexual mindset. The thing that I found on my own journey to the support of marriage equality is that a homosexual person can have the same level of discomfort and repulsive response to a hetrosexual experience. It was very surprising to me to watch a gay friend gag at the description of a hetrosexual act. Christians don’t need to relate to a homosexual experience. But it is wrong and immature to expect a person who has homosexual feelings and attractions and chooses to be in a homosexual relationship to change, or to deny them of basic human rights.

    This leads us to the authors 2nd discussion point. Is same sex marriage a civil rights issue? Most christians that I talk to that oppose marriage equality hold the opinion that god created marriage to be between a man an a woman and changing the meaning of marriage to include same sex couples would be unacceptable in the eyes of god. While this may seem like a noble and gentle argument in the eyes of a christian, it is really just a front for a bigger fear from christianity. The fear of gay rights being realised in society. The real reason I believe christians fight against marriage equality is because they fear the loss of their right to discriminate against the gay person. This ties back into a previous point I made.

    Is it a legitimate thing for a christian to fear a homosexual person teaching in a christian school and that teacher having the right to validate a young persons homosexual feelings or curiosity? Whilst I acknowledge it is a valid for a christian to feel this way, it is a feeling that is based on fear and misunderstanding. This feeling leads to an unfair judgement of gay people. It is a feeling that leads a christian to believe they have a right to discriminate against a gay person. For example, the right to a teaching position, or any other role they may have a personal objection to.

    It is really no different to the fear that some christians had in southern america when faced with accepting and integrating with African Americans. Most of society today would be puzzled at anyone who feared an African American teaching in a christian school. While it is understandable for a christian to fear a change like this, it really is a silly and un-warranted fear.

    I know where this fear arises from. It is very wrong and dangerous association christians place on homosexual people. The association of homosexuality with pedophiles, rape, and even beastiality. These are offensive associations that are in no way similar to homosexuality. Homosexulity is a mutual attraction and a choice between two mature people to have a relationship. The relationship fundamentals are in every way the same as a hetrosexual relationship. There is no law against homosexuality, yet I am amazed at how christians can draw on these associations time after time.

    The marriage equality issue is a without a doubt a civil rights issue. For the author to suggest that is not just shows ignorance to the requests being made by the homosexual community. Two gay people who love each other and commit their lives together should most certainly have the same legal rights as two hetro-sexual people who desire marriage. Rights that afford them legal power when their partner needs emergency medical decisions made, rights that provide financial assistance from the government just as any hetrosexual person would have. Rights that enable them to legally call their partner a husband or wife and rights to enjoy label of a married couple. So many more rights that we hetrosexuals just take for granted.

    Fighting against marriage equality is not only a distraction to the core christian calling, but it is a denial of human rights to a gay community. Most christians I know opposing marriage equality don’t consider that granting these rights to the gay community will actually have very little effect on their own personal lives, but it will make massive, life changing differences to our gay communities.

    Sadly, many christians, including christian leaders, fail to see the judgement and condemnation they place on gay people. Telling a gay person that their feelings are wrong and that repentance is required is a violation of human rights. This is a typical guilt tactic that is used by christians to manipulate changed behaviours in a gay person. The very real and sad reality of this sort of conduct is that it leads to isolation, guilt, bullying and ultimately suicide for so many young gay people trying to understand their feelings. Tragically, if any christian leader where to deeply study the origins of the word “homosexual” in the bible they would realise there is significant doubt on this matter. The biblical doubt should be cause for a global ‘cease fire’ on naming homosexuality as a sin.

    Phils final point is that opposition to same sex marriage is a religious issue. I feel that it is. The only real argument the Phil makes to support his position on this statement is “it’s not just christians, muslims or jewish people, its families too!!!” – but that’s about as far as Phil can argue this point. The rest of the discussion is babble about the opinions of political leaders and an unsupported comment about small clique of gay people lobbying politicians. I’m sorry Phil, but those sort of comments make you look very un-educated about current social trends. There are very few non-religious families that I know who have any issue at all with marriage equality. For most families, it won’t change a thing.

    I have not entered this discussion to fuel an argument. I am very much in favour of open discussion and public debate. Whilst I dis-agree with Phil’s point of view, I am grateful that he as a leader in the church community is willing to have a public discussion about such an important matter. I have had similar discussions with church leaders in the past, and not one yet has been able to provide solid biblical evidence to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that homosexuality is a sin. I will grant that modern translation would lead us to believe that homosexuality is a sin, but the overwhelming evidence is that the word homosexual was never in-fact in any of the original bible translations, and that if you were to lay out all of the scripture that many would suggest supports the ‘homosexuality is a sin’ theory, and then looked at the original greek/hebrew words used in those scriptures you would all agree that there is reasonable doubt about that position. In-fact, if you brought those scriptures to any modern court, the evidence would be dismissed as inconclusive. Yet christians will happily assume that homosexuality is a sin, and provide judgements like, “you MUST repent from homosexuality or Hell (or an eternity away from god) awaits you”. These very comments and judgements, no matter how gently they are presented “in-love” often lead to a guilt torn life or suicide. No court on earth would provide such a tremendous sentence for a crime that was not conclusive. How on earth can this be christian behaviour?

    I believe that society is moving towards marriage equality and gay rights. But I know many of my christian friends would dis-agree, whilst others are evaluating the argument and finding they are changing their position based on the evidence they have personally uncovered.

    I am not part of a loud extreme minority group. I am a happily married hetro-sexual man with three children. I was involved in the christian church for 20 years, I have lead worship, I have preached etc etc. I studied the bible fervently, and it was the study of the bible that lead me to my current position in support of marriage equality. I would happily allow any friend who may happen to be gay to babysit my children, or to have gay teachers teach my children. I would be fine with my children learning about gay sexuality alongside their general sex ed courses at school. I do not fear because there is nothing to fear. If any friend, family member or even my own children declared they were homosexual, they would have my full love and support.

    For those that have read this far, thank you for your time. I have not written to convince anyone of anything, but only to provide another angle of thought to consider in a very important global discussion. Phil, thank you for opening a discussion, I hope that you have not taken offence to any of my comments. I do know that those in leadership bear a greater weight of responsibility to all who listen and follow. I feel that it is appropriate to challenge the position of any leader who is open enough to publicly discuss important matters, particularly where I see genuine harm associated with the views declared.

    I do understand the feelings that christians have regarding this matter, and they are valid feelings, but based on fear. Do not fear, fear only leads to damaging behaviour. Any leader who participates in this discussion should certainly consider careful investigation of scripture before assuming the bibles position on this matter. Too often, personal opinions based on biased belief systems are preached as “gospel”. I would encourage any leader who feels strongly about this topic to study public trends and opinions before commenting about them. Most importantly, go and meet some gay people, don’t judge them, but ask them about their stories. Ask them how they feel about marriage equality and what it means to them. Ask them about the condemnation that comes from a christian world. Ask about depression and the issue of suicide as a result of condemnation and bullying. Please be sensitive and don’t be judgemental, there are feelings and emotions that may very well be on the edge. Once a leader has educated themselves on these points, they are very qualified to enter into intelligent public discussion. Without such education, any person commenting simply looks un-educated and opinionated.

  • Bozzy@brissy

    Hi Phil, I’m sorry mate, but I think the arguments from the original article are sloppy. The 3 “mistakes” are actually 3 points of public discussion – not mistakes. People living in democracies have a right to vote for what they believe, and the marriage equality support is growing amongst straight believers and non-believers alike.

    First up. Why do I think these arguments are sloppy? They don’t really support the points that the you intended to make, rather they were a scattered thought process attempting to support a point of view. To comment on public trends and assume that the discussion topics are “mistakes”, then to not support that position is disturbing. Phil, can you please give us public data supporting your point of view? Waffle about your interpretation of history may display that you have read a few history books, but you have not handled your argument well.

    The first point made is regarding an extreme statement you chose take on. It’s obvious that not everyone knows same sex marriage should be legalised. There are clearly many that oppose it. This was a lazy attempt at making a point, it is just “low hanging fruit”. If Phil really wanted intelligent discussion, perhaps he would have suggested that those that support marriage equality are a small and extreme group of people, and set out to support that statement. Or perhaps a more intelligent question for discussion would be “is there growing or shrinking support for marriage equality?”.

    If that was not the intent of the your first point Phil, perhaps it should of been “How can/should a christian approach the topic of same sex marriage?” This point should then have been filled with scriptural examples to which a christian should behave and how their view can be shaped by scripture. Far to many Church leaders are spouting their own opinion without scriptural clarity on the matter. If you asked a christian leader how one might be “saved” an abundance of scripture should be able to support that matter. I will point out that even with this most fundamental of biblical issues, the global christian body is divided and scriptural evidence is manipulated by denominational differences of opinion.

    As a side thought before I go on, here is one thing that has been bothering me lately. Jesus was a leader. He called people to follow him and he set about leading those who followed him and calling those who did not believe, to repent and accept him. He placed guidelines on those that did follow him, but did not expect those that did not follow to follow his rules. Jesus was not a political lobbyist and actually taught his followers to render unto ceaser that which is caesars. The bible advises christians to be in the world but not of the world. Also to be the light, the salt… Not one of Jesus teachings calls Christians to lobby governments or protest the political systems of the world. Jesus said that he would build his church, not that he would rule the laws of the land.

    My point here is that if a Christian is to follow christ, then why are christians distracted by fighting societies right to change and development? If the bible is as a christian believes it to be, then this matter is hardly a primary issue. Should not salvation be a primary concern? This is of course what Jesus set his life of a cross for. I believe that any christian that is caught up fighting for this issue is distracted, is not following christ and is of little faith that their god is able to do all things

    Here is why I believe that christians go to the battle front to stand against marriage equality.

    1. Hetrosexual christians are uncomfortable with the sexuality of a same sex relationship.

    2. Hetrosexual christians are scared and threatened by the prospect of a life where a gay person has rights. For example, the prospect of gay teachers in a christian school who is legally allowed to tell young adults that homosexual feelings are valid to those who feel that way.

    3. Some christians actually WANT to control public policy because they feel that it is their god given right to tell any person that does not follow their moral code to “fall in line”… aka, “repent”.

    The first two of these issues are legitimate feelings for a christian who believes the bible. The third is an arrogant, stubborn, aggressive and extremist stance against secular society.

    It is totally normal and acceptable to be uncomfortable with another persons sexual relationship. If you are Hetro-sexual and have not experienced homosexual feelings, then the idea of a homosexual relationship or experience is foreign, and even repulsive to you. This is ok, no one is expecting you to relate to a homosexual mindset. The thing that I found on my own journey to the support of marriage equality is that a homosexual person can have the same level of discomfort and repulsive response to a hetrosexual experience. It was very surprising to me to watch a gay friend gag at the description of a hetrosexual act. Christians don’t need to relate to a homosexual experience. But it is wrong and immature to expect a person who has homosexual feelings and attractions and chooses to be in a homosexual relationship to change, or to deny them of basic human rights.

    This leads us to the authors 2nd discussion point. Is same sex marriage a civil rights issue? Most christians that I talk to that oppose marriage equality hold the opinion that god created marriage to be between a man an a woman and changing the meaning of marriage to include same sex couples would be unacceptable in the eyes of god. While this may seem like a noble and gentle argument in the eyes of a christian, it is really just a front for a bigger fear from christianity. The fear of gay rights being realised in society. The real reason I believe christians fight against marriage equality is because they fear the loss of their right to discriminate against the gay person. This ties back into a previous point I made.

    Is it a legitimate thing for a christian to fear a homosexual person teaching in a christian school and that teacher having the right to validate a young persons homosexual feelings or curiosity? Whilst I acknowledge it is a valid for a christian to feel this way, it is a feeling that is based on fear and misunderstanding. This feeling leads to an unfair judgement of gay people. It is a feeling that leads a christian to believe they have a right to discriminate against a gay person. For example, the right to a teaching position, or any other role they may have a personal objection to.

    It is really no different to the fear that some christians had in southern america when faced with accepting and integrating with African Americans. Most of society today would be puzzled at anyone who feared an African American teaching in a christian school. While it is understandable for a christian to fear a change like this, it really is a silly and un-warranted fear.

    I know where this fear arises from. It is very wrong and dangerous association christians place on homosexual people. The association of homosexuality with pedophiles, rape, and even beastiality. These are offensive associations that are in no way similar to homosexuality. Homosexulity is a mutual attraction and a choice between two mature people to have a relationship. The relationship fundamentals are in every way the same as a hetrosexual relationship. There is no law against homosexuality, yet I am amazed at how christians can draw on these associations time after time.

    The marriage equality issue is a without a doubt a civil rights issue. For the author to suggest that is not just shows ignorance to the requests being made by the homosexual community. Two gay people who love each other and commit their lives together should most certainly have the same legal rights as two hetro-sexual people who desire marriage. Rights that afford them legal power when their partner needs emergency medical decisions made, rights that provide financial assistance from the government just as any hetrosexual person would have. Rights that enable them to legally call their partner a husband or wife and rights to enjoy label of a married couple. So many more rights that we hetrosexuals just take for granted.

    Fighting against marriage equality is not only a distraction to the core christian calling, but it is a denial of human rights to a gay community. Most christians I know opposing marriage equality don’t consider that granting these rights to the gay community will actually have very little effect on their own personal lives, but it will make massive, life changing differences to our gay communities.

    Sadly, many christians, including christian leaders, fail to see the judgement and condemnation they place on gay people. Telling a gay person that their feelings are wrong and that repentance is required is a violation of human rights. This is a typical guilt tactic that is used by christians to manipulate changed behaviours in a gay person. The very real and sad reality of this sort of conduct is that it leads to isolation, guilt, bullying and ultimately suicide for so many young gay people trying to understand their feelings. Tragically, if any christian leader where to deeply study the origins of the word “homosexual” in the bible they would realise there is significant doubt on this matter. The biblical doubt should be cause for a global ‘cease fire’ on naming homosexuality as a sin.

    Phils final point is that opposition to same sex marriage is a religious issue. I feel that it is. The only real argument the Phil makes to support his position on this statement is “it’s not just christians, muslims or jewish people, its families too!!!” – but that’s about as far as Phil can argue this point. The rest of the discussion is babble about the opinions of political leaders and an unsupported comment about small clique of gay people lobbying politicians. I’m sorry Phil, but those sort of comments make you look very un-educated about current social trends. There are very few non-religious families that I know who have any issue at all with marriage equality. For most families, it won’t change a thing.

    I have not entered this discussion to fuel an argument. I am very much in favour of open discussion and public debate. Whilst I dis-agree with Phil’s point of view, I am grateful that he as a leader in the church community is willing to have a public discussion about such an important matter. I have had similar discussions with church leaders in the past, and not one yet has been able to provide solid biblical evidence to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that homosexuality is a sin. I will grant that modern translation would lead us to believe that homosexuality is a sin, but the overwhelming evidence is that the word homosexual was never in-fact in any of the original bible translations, and that if you were to lay out all of the scripture that many would suggest supports the ‘homosexuality is a sin’ theory, and then looked at the original greek/hebrew words used in those scriptures you would all agree that there is reasonable doubt about that position. In-fact, if you brought those scriptures to any modern court, the evidence would be dismissed as inconclusive. Yet christians will happily assume that homosexuality is a sin, and provide judgements like, “you MUST repent from homosexuality or Hell (or an eternity away from god) awaits you”. These very comments and judgements, no matter how gently they are presented “in-love” often lead to a guilt torn life or suicide. No court on earth would provide such a tremendous sentence for a crime that was not conclusive. How on earth can this be christian behaviour?

    I believe that society is moving towards marriage equality and gay rights. But I know many of my christian friends would dis-agree, whilst others are evaluating the argument and finding they are changing their position based on the evidence they have personally uncovered.

    I am not part of a loud extreme minority group. I am a happily married hetro-sexual man with three children. I was involved in the christian church for 20 years, I have lead worship, I have preached etc etc. I studied the bible fervently, and it was the study of the bible that lead me to my current position in support of marriage equality. I would happily allow any friend who may happen to be gay to babysit my children, or to have gay teachers teach my children. I would be fine with my children learning about gay sexuality alongside their general sex ed courses at school. I do not fear because there is nothing to fear. If any friend, family member or even my own children declared they were homosexual, they would have my full love and support.

    For those that have read this far, thank you for your time. I have not written to convince anyone of anything, but only to provide another angle of thought to consider in a very important global discussion. Phil, thank you for opening a discussion, I hope that you have not taken offence to any of my comments. I do know that those in leadership bear a greater weight of responsibility to all who listen and follow. I feel that it is appropriate to challenge the position of any leader who is open enough to publicly discuss important matters, particularly where I see genuine harm associated with the views declared.

    I do understand the feelings that christians have regarding this matter, and they are valid feelings, but based on fear. Do not fear, fear only leads to damaging behaviour. Any leader who participates in this discussion should certainly consider careful investigation of scripture before assuming the bibles position on this matter. Too often, personal opinions based on biased belief systems are preached as “gospel”. I would encourage any leader who feels strongly about this topic to study public trends and opinions before commenting about them. Most importantly, go and meet some gay people, don’t judge them, but ask them about their stories. Ask them how they feel about marriage equality and what it means to them. Ask them about the condemnation that comes from a christian world. Ask about depression and the issue of suicide as a result of condemnation and bullying. Please be sensitive and don’t be judgemental, there are feelings and emotions that may very well be on the edge. Once a leader has educated themselves on these points, they are very qualified to enter into intelligent public discussion. Without such education, any person commenting simply looks un-educated and opinionated.

  • Aiesha

    Finally, answer to prayer. More wisdom, more revelation, Wider scope of influence and a legion of angels around you for protection. Do not grow weary, in this good you are doing! To all Duane Sherriff of Oklahoma in the U.S has an awesome teaching titled: Homosexuality: The Good, The Bad & The Ugly. Be Blessed .

  • ola

    We should use the word of God to analyse this topic.Any trend or culture that is contrary to the Word of God is from Satan and it is geared towards the destruction of humanity-his agenda is to steal,kill and destroy.He influences people to begin to do things contrary to the Word and by human acceptance what is contrary to Nature becomes accepted.In the eyes of God our human positions are irrelevant and only his Word is relevant.A prime minister or president that does not obey the Word will find himself or herself in Hell.

    It happened in the days of Noah so it is nothing that the Word has not said.

    A christian is one that abides in Christ and not a church member and the Word says by their fruits they shall be known.Anybody that does not obey the Word and use it to influence his decisions is not a Christian rem John 15 v 6,10.

    • Bozzy@brissy

      Ola. That is a very extremist “Christian fundamentalist” view. Your comments have a very threatening tone. But you are welcome to your view, just don’t expect non Christians of any form to abide by this view. By your beliefs, there are two lives, the life of flesh and blood, and the afterlife. You believe that the afterlife is set by heaven and hell. You are welcome to your belief, but have the maturity to acknowledge and respect that there are many that don’t share your belief, and only believe in one lifetime. A lifetime that they would like to make the most of. By your belief system, the afterlife is commanded and controlled by your god. But even by the bibles scriptures, there is no expectation for a non Christian to live this life according to biblical standards. There is a call… But not an expectation. In a Muslim country, a Christian has no right to dominate the rules of their government. This would be unreasonable.

      If a population, even a global population with a democratic right chooses its laws via a democratic system, then no Christian has a right to complain. If your god, who by your account has the Power to control an afterlife, burn down cities with fire from the skies, open up seas, call down plagues, flood the world to wipe out evil does not like the decisions that a globally population are making, the he can deal with it. He does not need your weak attempts to protect his will. Your job as a Christian is to love your neighbor and preach “good news”, not act like a immature child who can’t get his or her way. That is not a very attractive attitude and serves to repel people from the bible, not to draw them near. the bible constantly says that your god is able. Believe it or display to the world your lack of faith in it by trying to defend it to those who don’t believe it.

      • MisterJay

        Why are you on here? Is it to try and provoke? Firstly we are called “to stand against the wiles of the devil”.Ephesians 6:11. That is not dependent upon what society believes. If you want to talk about global majorities then you will find that those opposed to this regardless of creed are that majority. But somehow I get the feeling that you are not interested in facts(truth) just an affirmation of a corrupted lifestyle. But I think Jesus says it far better than I :
        “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” John 8:44-47

  • peter

    i like to point out that we are leaders in our churches, as becoming teachers of the word of God and overseeing the human souls to the members.
    I went back and read James 3:1 and 2 . “my brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. #2. For we all stumble in many things, If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. I have prevalently mention of the statements i have said. I know that we will be judge by the Heavenly Father and Jesus of how we stand on the issue of Homosexuality.

  • Algoria

    “We mustn’t let them succeed in rushing through this piece of hasty legislation.”

    Yes, because if we allow this the next thing you know they’ll be legalizing abortion. Then a million women in the EU and another million in the US will kill their unborn children every year. Not to mention more than 20 million killed annually worldwide. (A very conservative estimate.)

    Seriously, if we didn’t stop the evil practice of abortion on demand from being sanctioned in our “Christian” lands, what makes you think we will stop this one? We have sonograms of living, developing babies in the womb and people cover their eyes and refuse to look at them in order that they may kill them with a clear conscience. The media, academia and politicians have facilitated this.

    By all means, speak out against this if you will. The time may come when the state will not allow it to be discussed openly.
    But this is another warning sign. It should cause us Christians to seek the face of God for help in living our lives so that we may better do His will, and on behalf of our fellow human beings who are without Christ and without hope. It may be an “act of insanity” (to use your expression) to turn from the water of life provided by the living God to our own broken cisterns, but that is what is happening.

  • Livingasanoffering

    Grace and peace from God to all of us! I just wanted to let you know that having read all the comments here and from pastors, I am impressed that even as you all differ in thoughts, the exchange was not violent and I believe that there is an effort to teach.
    Truly this is an indication of the end times, the bible speaks about a time when good will be called bad and bad, good.
    This should be the time when we become united believing that Jesus Christ has victoriously defeated sin, death, and sickness and that God’s word will stand and His purpose and plan will be done as He wills. We are called to Hope in, to trust in, and rely on the Lord!
    I believe that all of you pastors and non pastors who have engaged in this commentary will find yourselves come in unity in prayer and fasting for America and for the world! I want to challenge the pastors to be the leaders of the intercession teams in your church and pray for the lost as an ct of love! Complaining and murmurings will lead us in the wilderness blinded to the secrets and the great plans of our Fathers. let us decree and declare God’s will and promise over our own lives, family. Cell group, congregation, neighborhood, city, state, nation, and to the ends of the world.
    I believe and declare that God has chosen all of you to be His children, beloved and in whom He delights, a people called by His Name, Holy and set apart from this world, that you will leave the cares of this world and purse Him, that you and the people Gid has entrusted unto you will prosper, will never be in lack, not depending on earthly treasures ($) to sustain yourselves therefore there is no need to embrace what the world dictates but instead be steadfast in seeking His kingdom, His righteousness, His truth that sets you free, for we have not received the spirit of fear !
    Love and blessings to all!