Rob Bell Supports Same-Sex Marriage – Here's Why It Matters

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Rob Bell on same-sex marriage: "The ship has sailed … We need to affirm people wherever they are."

Rob Bell came out, in a casual way, for same-sex marriage on Sunday in a forum at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco. Here’s an excerpt of his comments from the Out of Ur blog:

“I am for marriage. I am for fidelity. I am for love, whether it’s a man and woman, a woman and a woman, a man and a man. I think the ship has sailed and I think the church needs — I think this is the world we are living in and we need to affirm people wherever they are.”

You can listen to the complete talk from Grace Cathedral here. *The same-sex discussion begins at 42:30.

Now, for many this will not come as a surprise; for others it will confirm what they’ve been thinking about Rob Bell, and for others there will be a lingering question about the validity of Bell’s leadership and voice for the church today.

When Rob Bell built his platform, he did so largely as a mainline evangelical pastor. One of the largest platforms for Bell was comprised of young, mainline evangelical Christians. Bell’s provocative — yet mainline, to start — teaching invited in many who were tired of the boring, consumer-centered church messages they were hearing. They wanted something more impassioned. This group found Bell refreshing, creative — full of energy and wonder. The only problem: His teaching gradually moved toward classic liberalism.   

Bell’s theological foundation shifted over time — not overnight, not with one event, but slowly, over a number of years. If you followed his sermons and books, you could see it coming long before Love Wins. Bell started to play the role of provocateur and instigator over shepherd. Instead of bringing the declarative truth of a preacher, he delivered questions with unspoken but often liberal answers. 

I say all of that because the biggest problem for the church is not that Rob Bell came out for same-sex marriage, but that there’s a throng of young Christians who will likely be influenced by his viewpoint.

There’s no doubt, we need to address the issue of same-sex marriage. In fact, we need to approach the whole LGBT movement in a way that communicates our love for all people and the truth of the Word of God at the same time. However, for me, the ship has not sailed. 

Don’t overlook the importance of the discussion. You might not put much weight on Bell’s view, but it’s likely that there are many young evangelicals within your ministry who still care about what Bell says. They might not make the leap to the same conclusion about same-sex marriage today, but it could be the beginning of a slow fade in that direction — one that, like Bell’s progressive conversion, could take years to complete. 

What’s your reaction to Rob Bell’s statement on same-sex marriage?

Brian Orme Brian is the founding editor of and He works with creative and innovative people to discover the top stories, resources and trends to equip and inspire the Church.

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  • pastor brian hale

    Rob Bell is Rob Wrong. Funny how men get big in church work and forget the foundation of the church.

  • Ryan

    As a pastor, I’ve been in the middle on this debate of marriage. If i were to endorse gay marriage, I wouldn’t stop endorsing Holiness according to God’s Word. So the problem that arises is if a gay marriage couple comes to my church and genuinely puts their faith in Jesus and even realize they are living in sin, does that justify their divorce? Is Rob Bell endorsing marriage and divorce in hopes that one day they will see their sinful ways and decide to divorce to be right before God? True repentance would change a gay couple’s marriage drastically? Would they ask Rob, is it okay if we stay married? What does he say to that? Is Rob’s goal to appease, but not appeal for trust in Jesus and repentance of sin?

    • 905806

      I understand how this can seem like a really difficult position – dealing with homosexual couples who come and genuinely want to follow Jesus. But what is the use of holiness and a standard – God’s plan for human union (men and women, never same sex unions) from Genesis to Revelation – isn’t considered binding or important enough to be taught/people exhorted with in, with love and passion to see people wholly enter God’s plan, wholly live the Biblical plan, for their lives? If I can cheerfully, by the church, be entered into the house of God as a homosexual living with a partner, could I also enter into as a heterosexual living in adultery?

      • 9050806

        Sorry for being so long winded! Wow… But to finish up my thought, is it really loving to say in effect that someone can follow Jesus without a crisis and eventual laying down of their will? I think of the account of Jesus when He turned away those people who wanted to follow Him but to FIRST go and do this or that… If homosexuality is not a part of the plan of God but something of man’s wisdom to fill the void of loneliness in people’s hearts, fulfill the desires of the physical body or to just find comfort in another person, it seems to me anyways that it has to be laid aside along with all else at the foot of the Cross that is not of God but is of man and one’s own cross picked up (the burden of love, of obedience testifying to the trust that true love brings) as testimony of one’s heart’s desire to follow Jesus… And that burden, that sacrifice is “light” Jesus said, to come to Him in this way brings rest to the weary and heavy laden who are trying to make it through life without the Savior who loves them, without His perfect will operating in their lives… Not saying it’s easy, or comfortable but in the end all of it won’t even be “worthy to be compared” with the glory revealed…

    • Gary

      It’s not a marriage by Biblical definition. If God didn’t ordain it then how can it be wrong to dissolve it? I don’t think you see how harmful it is when someone’s gender identity is broken. I don’t know how it happened, but it is part of a fallen world and finding mercy, justice and love cannot mean we ignore the brokenness.

      • Ryan

        I’m not for gay marriage, I was hypothetically speaking, putting myself in Rob’s shoes mainly to show how ridiculous his choice is. I say I’ve been in the middle in that I don’t agree with a gay couple getting married and calling it a marriage, this is distorting what God intended. But what are they allowed to do without distorting marriage from our perspective? If they are going to be together anyway, maybe give them some time of union, but don’t call it a marriage. See where I am coming from?

        • Ryan

          type of union*

    • lee

      As a pastor you have no business being in the middle of a debate that is against the word of God in the first place. Your problem is unbelief.

  • Billy

    This is apostasy, knowing what God’s word says about homosexuality and then deciding to support it. We need to pray that God begins to work on Rob Bell’s heart so that this corruption can be changed.

    • Darrell

      I want to commend Brian,for the information he shared and the spirit he shared it in and for the steps to take in dealing with it. It wasn’t down your throat but a concerned warning.Well written-my Brother.The God kind of love corrects but it does it in love and because of love (Ephesians 4;15)

  • Bro Obet

    Romans 1

    19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

    We are not to affirm people wherever they are

    We are to call to repentance all people everywhere (Acts 17:29-31)

    • Matthew

      Funny you use these verses to make those points. I read these verses and think, “Praise God for what He did!” because these verses describe every one of us. And what He did is an affirmation to the world. How can we not affirm people by preaching that God poured out His life for us in spite of ourselves? I think you need to keep reading Romans. It gets really good, I promise!

      • amos8

        “…these verses describe every one of us.”?? This is your justification? Your rationalization for the sin of others?

        “…every one of us” has “degraded” our bodies with one another?

        “Every” women is “inflamed” with lust for other women?

        “Every one of us” is a homosexual?

        When, exactly, did God give “every one of us” over to shameful lusts?

        This list of errors and falsehoods goes on and on …

        And you are praising God for this?

        Which falsehood of yours is worthy of praise?

        Did you intentionally pervert Scripture to fit into your desired beliefs, or are you simply sloppy in your exegesis? Perhaps it is your thinking that has become “futile.”

        In the last chapter Paul does warn us of false teachers … those who put obstacles (of falsehood) in our way … so yes, the book not only “gets really good” it becomes more and more applicable.

        • Matthew

          I’m praising God for salvation through Christ! That even these can be saved. Yes, this list describes all of us in our sins. The depths of wretchedness in our heart of hearts. It’s a general statement, not that each of these sins are specific to every individual. These are the depths of what we are capable of, and in a sense yes, you are no better than a homosexual, you are no better than a woman “inflamed with lust” for another woman. I am not either. No one is! So, to take these verses and use them as a laundry list of warnings for Christians to look out for, as it appeared to have been being used above, takes them out of context in relation to the entire book of Romans, which is basically tells the story of salvation. I was gently encouraging the commenter above to look at the epistle as a whole and not use these verses that way. Everything points to the Gospel!

          • Matthew

            Sorry, reading my comment over again, I can see how you could misunderstand what I was saying. “Praise God for what He did!” was in reference to the work of Christ on the cross. No need to be nasty, though. My thinking is not futile nor is my exegesis sloppy. I did not pervert anything to suit my beliefs. I am a sinner in need of salvation just like everyone else here.

          • amos8

            “Yes, this list describes all of us in our sins.”

            Okay, I now see–even more clearly and affirmatively–where the problem is.

          • Matthew

            Where is the problem?

  • Gilbert Shea

    As a Christian, I cannot believe that we would have to have this discussion. It should be completely obvious to all that Rob Bell is wrong. I cannot believe the world we are living in these days, its insane. Lord Jesus come quickly.

    • John Amen

      God bless you sir! What is Christianity and Christians turning into? Bell is possessed with demons. I don’t care who He is. He needs to repent.

  • Bud Brown

    The danger of celebrity pastors which our media help create…

    • LEE

      Are we propagating truth because of Mr. Bell or because the word of God has instructed the church to publish the gospel of the kingdom. We must not become reactionaries but the salt and the light of the world. Ignore Mr. Bell if he is telling lies or continue to wrestle with flesh and blood. There are souls that are on their way to hell and we continue to wrestling with flesh and blood. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM MORE THAN WE ARE PRAYING MATTHEW 21:22.

      • lee

        meant to say: ignore Mr. bell if he is telling lies. stop wrestling with flesh and blood.

      • Bud Brown

        “Ignore Mr. Bell…” Spot on!

  • Lightbearer

    According to Rob Bell the Bible should be a changing word for every generation, which of course means its truths must also change. This is ludicrous. How can we trust in absolute truth if we affirm that it is changing with the times. i think this is an excuse not to stand for truth, but to go the way the world’s thinking, thereby winning friends and influencing more people to your way of thinking. The old saying is true, “If you don’t stand for something, you will fall for anything.” What is tragic in this influence is that so many young Christians are converts and not disciples. They have not yet learned the skill of discernment. They are unfamiliar with the Word of truth. If they rely on men like Rob Bell to interpret truth, they are walking blindly in a prickly forest.

  • HarmonicaDan

    No surprise on his position. Since Love Wins and everyone gets to heaven anyway, why would any sin be a problem on earth? Or then again, maybe God’s Word should be consulted.

    • PastorRog

      Bingo! If there are no consequences for sin, then why worry about it? Bell has completely lost sight of God’s Holiness.

      • amos8

        And who first minimized or denied the consequences of sin? [“You will not surely die…”]

    • $27626823

      The Word of God is NOT vague explaining the issue- need not consulting.

  • Natalia

    What a shame!

  • amos8

    Is ANYONE really surprised? Yet this is not the most concerning part.

    As problematic as his statement above might be, further in the same article/interview there is a far more revealing and disturbing quotes. It must be clear by now that Rob Bell and the e – MERGING church (i.e. “merging” with the world and every other ideology outside of conservative Christianity) are decidedly anti-“Conservative” Christianity. It does not take much discernment to see this, but it does take courage to admit it.

    “I think we are witnessing the death of a particular subculture that
    doesn’t work. I think there is a very narrow, politically intertwined,
    culturally ghettoized, Evangelical subculture that was told “we’re gonna
    change the thing” and they haven’t. And they actually have turned away
    lots of people. And i think that when you’re in a part of a subculture
    that is dying, you make a lot more noise because it’s very painful. You
    sort of die or you adapt. And if you adapt, it means you have to come
    face to face with some of the ways we’ve talked about God, which don’t
    actually shape people into more loving, compassionate people. And we
    have supported policies and ways of viewing the world that are actually
    destructive. And we’ve done it in the name of God and we need to

  • amos8

    When your main approach to Scripture, truth, and life is essentially … “It is good and necessary to say ‘Did God really say …'” (i.e. it is good to cast doubt on and undermine God’s Word) then how can anyone be surprised? How far will he be in 5 years? In 10 years?

  • ronnie waldridge

    If you have read your Bible then you know God is 100% against anything outside of 1-man + 1-woman = 4-life. This is HIS plan. BUT we are to love everyone and always show them that God truly loves them also. At the same time we are required to tell them that although He loves them, He hates and will judge all sin. Paul in his writings gives a very lengthy list of the people who will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God or will not be permitted into Heaven. But don’t hate this sin and forget to judge your own heart to be sure there is no sin there. All sin is evil in the eyes of God and He will judge the gossiper and judgemental person the same as He judges what we want to describe as great sins. Sin is Sin no matter how little we think it is.

  • Kathy

    I am and always will be against gays and same sex marriage. I do not think any church should approve of it. However, if churches were full of Christians there would be no need for them. I think Jesus would have disapproved of this behavior but accepted them because he loved everyone and wanted everyone to learn about God. He did not judge He loved.

    • wmthunzi75

      depends on how you define love. I think this is where the problem is that we have replaced the gospel that says repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins with a simplistic half truth that says Jesus loves you.

  • Hephzeba

    maybe we should go back to what the Bible has to say on the topic. If we are going to speak in Gods shouldn’t we quote him on He has to say about the subject.. should we selectively read /rewrite the Bible so as not to rock the boat. brings to mind Rev 22:18-19

  • Den

    This is an excellent discussion. The bit I struggle with is the following. If two men are gay (which is not by their choice) and they love each other (and love is good) and they love God (which is also good), what is the appropriate practical reaction from the Church? Of course you do not change the Word of God. You do not tell them that something is OK if God says it’s not OK. But at the same time, is it really for us to judge them, or is it better to let them know what we (to the best of our limited understanding) believe God is saying to them, but then accept them, as sinners, but we are all sinners, and let God be the final judge.
    My specific concern is this: the Word of God is very clear on adultery. It is very clear about “casual” sex. But (again, to the best of my knowledge), at the time of Jesus there was no concept of two gay men choosing to enter into a loving, faithful lifelong relationship. And one has to imagine that Jesus would have been more tolerant of that.
    If I have two men in front of me who are gay, who are in a beautiful loving, faithful relationship with each other, who support each other in sickness and in health, and who love God, I find it difficult to say to them: “you must separate!” knowing that neither of them will never find such a relationship with a woman.
    My question is therefore: is it more appropriate to say: “you should continue to love and support and be faithful to each other. And you should continue to love God. But you must be aware that we believe that any sexual relations you have will be an abomination in the eyes of God, and you will be judged for them.”

    • Tim wright

      What they emotionally have between them, the Bible does not call it love, it is deception. The word of god is our North Star, not the what we think and feel, I would encourage you to listen, watch, Robert Gagnon and hear his teaching on the biblical foundation against homosexual practice.

    • Gary

      It’s tough to call beautiful what God callls objectionable (the practice not the people). Moses, Jesus and Paul each define marriage as a man and a woman coming together. The image of God also includes our gender identity. When that gets scrambled there is something broken that needs to be healed. We’re in the healing business and healing can be painful. We must love gay people, but in Jesus name we must help them find healing just as I must also find healing for my wounded heart. I can truly love and accept someone without affirming what they do.

    • Trevor

      I think there are insurmountable problems with that approach. Firstly, repentance is a heart issue. It’s wrong to say that only sexual activity is wrong, lust is wrong too. Orientation does not effect this. A single heterosexual has to put to death all desires and thoughts, even when experiencing attraction to someone of the opposite sex. Such attraction will lead to lust if entertained. Like someone holding chocolate while on a diet. I think two gay people loving each other but being abstanant is unrealistic. Better to have safe friendships. Same as any singles. Homosexual acts are wrong because homosexuality is wrong. It has to be out to death at a heart level, like all singleness issues.

      The second thing we should remember is that Romans 1 tells us that homosexuality is part of the judgment of God on people and nations who reject Him, exchanging the truth of God for a lie. It should concern us greatly that there is a worldwide movement right now for gay marriage – because of what it says about how God is dealing with the world in wrath. It should call forth great repentance and prayer.

      People often think that if gay people can’t help it, or are born like it then there must be elements of it that are ok. That’s not true. We are all born sinful and can’t help but sin, but we are still held responsible, and still given power to repent through regeneration. Yes it will be some Christians struggle, and for other Christians their struggle will be somewhere else. The gay issue is the same as singleness, and many people don’t choose to be single. Life is hard for all of us, but if your hand causes you to sin cut it off, its better than going to he’ll – Jesus says.

    • Twinsfan1

      Den, just a few things:

      1. Not choosing their attraction doesn’t make it good or acceptable. Same-sex attraction is not part of who God “made” us – in other words, God did not create that attraction in them, since He will not create an attraction to something He clearly calls sin.

      2. People in Jesus’ time probably DID have a concept of loving, same-sex relationships, but in that culture, coming out would have brought a death sentence, so it would have had to be very well hidden. Homosexual attraction and behavior have been around since almost the beginning, and God addresses that behavior quite clearly. He, being all-knowing, would be aware of that possibility.

      And even more relevant is the idea that Jesus, being God Himself, was very aware of such things. He was not ignorant about this stuff. Also, we need to be careful that we don’t confuse His tolerance for PEOPLE with any supposed tolerance for activity that God calls sin. We could easily say that since we are all sexual beings that Jesus should be tolerant of all sexual behavior – and yet the woman caught in adultery was told to go and leave her life of (heterosexual) sin.

      3. We are not judging people when we tell them what God’s Word says about their activity. God has already judged it as wrong. We are simply (and hopefully lovingly) telling them what God says about it. Our opinion doesn’t count, only God’s does. What is wrong is how we harshly condemn without telling them of the life-changing gospel of Christ.

      4. Jesus says that if we love Him, we’ll obey Him. John says that to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome to those who truly love Him. We show our love by our actions. An emotional love for God is not the measure of love according to Scripture, only one indicator – and especially for those outside of Christ, it is deceitfully wicked and cannot be trusted. Therefore, if a person is aware of God’s prohibitions against homosexual behavior and purposely choose to engage in it, they actually do not love God – according to His own definition of love. So we cannot scripturally counsel someone to continue to “love” his/her same-sex partner and “love” God. They are mutually exclusive.

      I appreciate your struggle with discussing this with people who have same-sex attractions, and I appreciate your desire to stay true to Scripture. Just remember that emotional attraction and fidelity to a same-sex partner, cannot trump God’s clear commands, no matter the depth of that attraction and fidelity.

  • Omooba

    I don’t know much about the individual but what I know enough of is the word of GOD. When you get on a wrong ship you definitely end up in the wrong shore.
    We need to remain biblically correct and not politically correct.
    We need to point our young ones to the bible truths and not worldly facts.
    We shouldn’t stop prayers for those that are on the wrong ship, GOD can still help them locate the right ship and sailor.

  • Jacob Ooi

    The write is WRONG! May God forgive him, and he like king David quick to repent.

  • Rev. David P. McAfee

    Rob Bell only has a voice because people give him a platform and report it as it has been done here. Pray for him, but don’t give him a forum to speak lies.

  • Pleasant Grove Baptist Church

    He needs to read the Bible!

    • amos8

      The Bible is just a “man-made product” (according to Rob Bell)

      • livingmartyrs

        That’s enough of an accusation it needs a citation.

        • amos8

          First, please tell me, will it make a difference? Will it make a difference in what you believe about RB or the topic here?

          Second, he and his wife both said this in an interview with Christianity today about 10 years ago (you can google it if you would like). Also, RB is a HUGE fan of Marcus Borg, from whom he most likely got this notion (MB frequently teaches the same).

          So, what difference does this now make?

        • amos8

          “The Bells started questioning their assumptions about the Bible
          itself—”discovering the Bible as a human product,” as Rob puts it,
          rather than the product of divine fiat.”

          I hope that RB’s errant view of THE Standard and Authority for life and truth and love would make a difference… but not so in today’s “Church.”

          “A horrible and shocking thing
          has happened in the land:
          The prophets prophesy lies,
          the priests rule BY THEIR OWN AUTHORITY,
          and MY PEOPLE LOVE IT THIS WAY.”

  • ronvwell

    I share a concern for many of Rob Bell’s positions. Here’s what I do struggle with: a generation ago in many Christian communities it was assumed that a divorce signaled a grievous departure from the faith. After all Jesus himself made that clear. Now, a few years later the church seems to have come to terms with the fact that, while divorces grieve God, divorced people need to be embraced and helped in moving on in life–whether or not they are able to “fix” their broken marriages. Increasingly I find myself wondering whether God may be leading us in a similar shift in our view of homosexuality: recognizing that while homosexuality is clearly not God’s best for humanity, like divorce, brokenness is its various forms often gets in the way, and that his grace calls us not to condemn what cannot be easily “fixed” but to invite broken people to join us as we limp together behind the Savior who heals us. How is a gay person with an “unfixable” sexual orientation any different from a divorced person with an “unfixable” marriage?

    • Jared

      Thats a really interesting thought. Thanks for sharing.

      • agrclemsonfarmn

        The “sin” is how progressive liberal thinkers tricked The Church” into this debate which led to The Church having to stay on the edfensive stand, so no proclamation as to courthouse marriages , There should NOT be marriage b/w same sex couples. After all, the issue boils down to $$, lawyers, legislation, benefits, etc. Nothing can be done for a livein relationship of either sexual preference.

    • Vern

      One is a relationship. The other is a person. We can ultimately only be responsible for ourselves and our actions. Holding one person accountable for both parties in a relationship is not reasonable. Holding a person responsible for their own sexual behavior certainly is.

      People seem to be ignorant that this “problem” is neither new nor modern. The reason it is addressed so strongly in the Bible is that it was a common sin even in those days. Some people just prefer to be popular and accepted by the world around them. That kind of person will always be under extreme pressure to modify their views to current standards.

      • RobC

        Outstanding response! Thank you

        • Dane

          I greatly beg to differ. How is relationship different from being an individual?? We build our relationships out of who we are. What is to be said of the countless women (or even men)through the ages that stayed and suffered in “bad” marriages for the rest of their lives because they greatly believed as the Bible TEACHES that divorce is wrong and against God’s desires. So now the church “honors” them for their free-thinking that because things got “rough” it’s okay for them to be divorced and continue to serve God freely in the church as an example to young people. If you’re going to be consistent with Biblical teaching, then be fair and be consistent all around– don’t pick and choose!!

          • Drummie

            We build relationships out of who we PROJECT that we are. That is the problem. Sooner or later the real “who we are” will show up and that is when the problems begin. Being married is thought of as a relationship and that is another problem as well. Dating is a relationship. If a marriage is truly Christian, it is beyond a relationship. God says we become one flesh in marriage. That only happens in a Godly marriage. That goes beyond relationship. Gay men have a relationship with each other because they can not become “one flesh” as a man and woman do in marriage. Neither can two lesbian women. Another problem here is that “gay” and “lesbian” are behaviors. No valid scientific or medical evidence has been shown that says differently. There has been sham science that suggests this but nothing valid. The fact that some people have changed from a homosexual to heterosexual life destroys the “immutable” claims. Might sound like a philosophical exercise, but go back to God’s word, “and they shall become one flesh”.

          • pastorbmiller

            The difference between the relationship and the individual is that in the relationship, there is another person who also has to be on board with reconciliation. The individual’s choice to live in homosexuality is a sin they can overcome and leave, through the grace of God. They can’t force the marriage to rekindle on their own, unless it is their own fault of the divorce, obviously.

          • Hersh, or is it Harsh

            I have to agree with you. “I” by nature am a sinner…. one of my sin “choices” is (WAS) cocaine. I suppose I could say I was born that way ;-P but either way, God says is not what HE wants for my life and if… “IF” I CHOOSE to follow Him then I need to set aside whatever sin(s) I was born with… and there’s the rub or difficulty.

            If they (whoever They are) can claim they are born that way, so then can I, can’t I???? Whatever sin you follow or struggle with is immaterial. What my point is, and what’s really important is, I believe you CAN OVERCOME any sin that you struggle with…. but if you don’t want to fight the good fight and choose to lay claim to, “I was born that way….” go ahead.

            So…. I agree with you, there is a huge difference between a relationship and the individual. I as an individual can choose to stop sinning, but I in a relationship cannot stop the other person from exercising their free-will to leave.

          • Truth and love

            We are all “born this way”: sinners. And if Jesus had not died and had not resurrected, there would not be any hope for any of us.
            It is indeed a matter of choice. I agree.
            It is all about deciding whether we want to remain in the condition we were born – sinners – or be born again as a new person in the power of the blood of Jesus shed by all of the sinners in the world, because of God’s love.

          • UglyBattery

            So what would you have homosexual people do?

      • SnootGrammarian

        The church has never had a problem with “divorces” per se. What they have historically taken issue with is remarriages. If you leave your spouse or he leaves you, that’s it. You’ve demonstrated that you are an unfit spouse or at least that you are not capable of choosing a fit spouse. Look at the divorce rate among people who have at least 1 divorce on their record. It’s always excuses: “If I can just find ‘the one.'” Any personal failures are swept away.

        This is why Christ advocated a divorceless church when he commanded no one to undo the unions that are wrought. People tend to take marriage more seriously when it’s for life. How many people would divorce if they didn’t think they could “upgrade” to a better spouse? I think they would improve the relationships they are in.

      • Mark

        The truth is, homosexuality not addressed strongly in the Bible. There are, at most, six references. If we want to talk about things which are addressed strongly in Scripture we need to talk about care for widows and orphans, honesty, and lack of hypocrisy. Even if we accept the classic view that every reference is non-debatable in its view of homosexuality, we still have a strong time saying the Bible addresses it strongly. No more strongly than any other “sin”. And, in the Old Testament, it is alongside purity laws including women’s menstruation.

        • WOB

          Mark … and your point is? The Bible (God) condemns ALL sin. He said the wages of sin is death. If memory serves me right, He only made reference to that a few times. Does that mean that He’s not serious about sin and its repercussions? Hardly.

          • Mark

            You did not read my post carefully, did you? I simply responded to your “strongly” statement. The “wages of sin” is a theme that runs all throughout Scripture…not at all a mere few times. I compared the amount of emphasis given to homosexuality to the emphasis to things like care of widows and orphans. The difference of emphasis is fairly apparent. Thank you.

          • WOB

            I didn’t make a “strongly” statement. So, that wouldn’t have been my post that you read so carefully. :)) Ribbing aside, we, as a society, do have a tendency to weigh sexual sins as greater than other sins. God does call some sins an “abomination” to him, same sex relations being one of them. However, he labels other non-sexual sins as also an “abomination.” Therefore, we should steer clear of sinning and judging those who sin. God tells us to “make disciples” of those around us, not to tar and feather them.

          • Toby

            I love it when Christians use these one liners “the wages of sin is death”. I’ve done it too often myself. Actually when you check the background of this text it says:The wages of sinfulness in Adam is death. It has nothing to do with what we do but everything to do with whom we are in Adam systemically.So to just throw this text out to condemn some one just shows whom we are in Adam. I have never walked in the shoes of a gay individual and am hard pressed to condemn. To be honest, I have enough on my own plate to deal with. I am thankful that “all judgement has been given to Jesus” It is not mine to give.

          • WOB

            There’s a price to be paid for sin and that is eternal separation from God. Only through Christ’s Blood Atonement and God’s acceptance of that sacrifice are we able to be washed from that sin nature. I don’t condemn those who are same sex, but I don’t endorse their sin as Rob Bell and others on here have done. When we “accept” same-sex marriage, we also condone it. Shall we also accept lying, cheating, adultery, etc? The World has decided that much of what has been traditionally condemned as sin or as an “unnatural act” is now okay. The Bible warned us that such things would come to pass. We as Christians must not condemn the individuals who sin, but we certainly are to condemn the sinful act.

        • Tim

          The “It’s not addressed strongly” argument is actually a falsehood. Let me illustrate: If I invented A and then I invented Q with the purpose of putting them together and patenting a product that I would wholly endorse as my and idea and my thing, I wouldn’t need to talk much about how if someone put A together with more A (or Q with more Q) that it was not my idea and it does not produce what I intended and that I do not endorse it. Especially if I talk a lot about that fact that from the beginning it was me who invented A for a specific role and how it was me who invented Q for a totally different role but equally important role, and that it was me that invented them with the intention of putting them together. And I make statements like “what I’ve put together, don’t let anyone tear apart.” Then I don’t need to speak strongly about how I don’t agree with people who do it differently because everyone knows that’s not how I intended it.

          I know the analogy can be broken down if you feel you need to do that, but the point is that God doesn’t need a lot statements about how putting a man with a man and women with women is not his idea but ours because he makes it so clear what his intention is. He goes so far to say that he is actually keeping us from sinning to our full potential and that there are some that he just lets go (reprobate mind) and they invent these things in their most perverted conditions. Everything is created for Him and by Him.

      • Carol Thomas

        Are you saying that just by existing the homosexual person is sinning? They should be held accountable for the way they were created? Isn’t the very God who creates and sustains you also the God who creates, sustains and loves the homosexual person? Biblical study is clear that the homosexual activity that is pointed out as sin in the bible is the pagan homosexual orgiastic worship of false gods. Do you really think that God, who created gay people, would find their monogamous sexual love in a committed relationship to be abhorrent? I don’t. And neither do many other Christians. The Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone: I will make him a helpmate suitable for him”. Yet, Christians say that the homosexual person should be alone and never know the love of another person in a committed, loving relationship.

    • Keith S.

      Choosing a life of behavior that is addressed in Scripture as wrong is way different than experiencing brokenness in marriage or wrongly ignoring the marriage covenant. One is an ongoing lifestyle the other is a failure to honor a contract. I’ve not heard any one suggests that divorce is a newly accepted belief of the Christian church. On the other hand, we should all we can to save marriages and help those who have divorced find wholeness in life. Not change our beliefs about divorce. I, as a man, have an “unfixable” desire to lust, am I free to do it unchecked?

      • Brad

        No, but when you do endulge that lust (and you do, on occasion – you’re human), does that eliminate you from salvation and grace? No. We can’t possibly judge the hearts of men, nor how God’s grace does or does not work, or what it does or does not cover. Either way, marriage is not God’s plan for mankind, just like homosexuality. That makes it just as bad. Yes, in come cases there are different circumstances. But in most divorce cases, it occurs because one or both parties do not want to put in the hard work to honor that covenant. It’s hard. Very hard. But that doesn’t change that divorce is wrong. Now, with homosexuality, there is that element of “continuity,” and I honestly don’t know how to address that. Again, God knows the heart. But, in terms of the topic of this discussion, gay marriage is a political issue, not a spiritual one. We are a fighting something at the expense of our ministry that does not have any spiritual impact (they are still gay and need Jesus whether they are married or not).

        • pastorbmiller

          Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID!! God’s awesome grace doesn’t mean we have freedom to sin however we choose. That’s a slap in the face of Christ as He hung on the cross.

          • Ben

            to pastorbmiller, the only one who knows sin is the person whom God made alive. Before you met Jesus sin meant nothing to you and me now that I know what is what I am quick to repent, because i do not want to grieve the Holy Spirit and the Blood Of Jesus. dead is dead. a sin conscience person more concerned about him self, because they can’t believe they have been forgiven for all of there sin. does not the bible say we
            are on these earth but not part of it. We as new creatures should not judge the world God has in Christ Jesus. Ben

        • $27626823

          Marriage is NOT God’s plan for mankind? are you serious – How far off can you all go..? where did you read that?
          God doesn’t allows for divorce but marriage is NOT his plan for us..? okay, hmm. Gay marriage is a political issue as well as spiritual one. Gay activism is WELL funded, by atheists and progressives ( communists ) who are taking over the country. Democrats live off a ‘permanent underclass’, better yet if its also immoral. It ‘paints’ conservatives as the ill minded bigoted ones they need and serves them they are going to town and the bank with this, especially the last twenty years. It is a spiritual one They ( Dems ) don’t need competition Christians are a HUGE obstacle, for their secular world view. The war on Christianity will roar on worse each time. The more gays, the better for them.
          why would gays seek Jesus? unless it is to be transformed? If I were seeking transformation I would not treat myself as gay. A Christian gay is an impossibility.

          • Matthew

            Do you realize you just said a Christian sinner is an impossibility? I have no place saying anything on this forum if there are Christians on here who haven’t sinned!

            Enough sarcasm. Seriously, marriage is an allowance made by God, and Paul very clearly illustrates that it is neither better or worse to be married or single. Marriage was instituted by God as a solution for those who burn with passion, and in that awesome God way, He happened to make marriages when they’re at their best, a picture of Christ’s relationship to the church, because God is just that awesome, and His ways always show love, order and significance!

            I’m having trouble addressing your comment, because you’ve got a lot going on there, but I think a good start would be to ask, “Why would anyone seek Jesus?” Transformation occurs, certainly, but we all wrestle with sin in some form or another until the day we physically die. So, if we’re still going to sin, (as much as we don’t want to or even try to control the sins of others around us to keep ourselves from wanting to, or being able to) what’s the point in seeking Jesus? You, me, and everyone on this forum has a sin problem that can only be taken away by trusting and believing that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to do that, and continually believing in that. We seek salvation because that reality opens up the opportunity for us to have a relationship with our God. In the book of Hebrews, the writer distinguishes a difference between the Old and New Covenants. In the Old Covenant, God dealt with Israel based on their ability to fulfill the requirements of the Law. In the New, God no longer deals with us based on that ability, because He conquered sin through Christ on the cross, that we should know our God. We seek Jesus to KNOW our God. It is in that knowing your God, and trusting and believing in what He has done for you, that He begins to work through you, sin lessens in your life and you are freed to love as He loves. So why would gays seek Jesus? How about why would anyone seek Jesus? To know their God!

          • $27626823

            Many good things well said in your post. I rushed mine in, I went all over the place yes. So, on the issue at hand, I see here and elsewhere on line, the trend is for many gays to insist they can co-exist or being ‘Christian gays’ because God still Loves them, and that means it should be okay’. I don’t wonder anymore where they might get that idea. ( they would rush into and hang on any tread of HOPE that would keep them doing their business and make believe its okay ) Know this.
            I don’t doubt any second God Loves EVERYONE, as potential saints we all are. The closer we stick to God, the less chances we get to be tempted or FALL into evil doing. Someone who ‘practices a gay life style’ I believed made a decision, Yes he can change his mind., and that is why we are here NOT to abandon them but to find a way to encourage the right ways when an opportunity presents. So, yes I don’t go around the bushes, you confuse them – They don’t need more confusion than they already have, plain and simple.

          • Hersh, or is it Harsh

            Okay I gotta jump in…. I thought the Word mentioned something about…. REPENTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay so if I don’t have to repent…. if I can carry on my natural sinful… I”ll snort a mountain of cocaine and have sex with all your wives!!!! That’s SARCASM!!!!

            Seriously people… if we do NOT have to repent… I’ll be the first one jumping back in… BUT before I do I am going to kill the liar who told me I needed to repent from my sins (What God calls sin).

            I think the comments will be flying now…..

          • Ben

            Hersh, can you remember what Jesus said on the cross, Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. can you see your self in His thoughts about you. no you do not have to do anything because Jesus did it all. the reason we ask to be for giving is to keep our conscience clear. do you see Steven the first martyr repeated the very same words as He was being stoned. If you are born a new or again you are not the same as the world is, because your Spirit and the Holy Spirit will confirm it. unless you have no pentecostal experience. remember if the Spirit of god does not reside in you, your none of His. listen the brother matthew Ben

          • Tom

            Do you think that God granted Jesus’ and Steven’s request?? And let’s assume He did. That doesn’t clear them of that fact that they are in Adam and it doesn’t clear them of their transgression of God’s law. Jesus’ and Steven’s words are a mute point here. Should we ask God to forgive homosexual sin because we think they don’t know what they are doing? And what did the murders not know? Did they not know they were killing an innocent person? They new…the bible knows so. The Pharisees killed Jesus because they feared their power and influence would be taken away by this man from Galilee. Blasphemy was the cover charge. The scripture is clear about that. So again, what were they then forgiven? If we are to assume God answered their request than we also have to acknowledge that He only forgave that sin. Even after that, they still needed a saviour.

          • Tim

            I agree that the point of the whole thing is God drawing people to know Him. Amen! It is also very appropriate to call out the heresy of sinless perfection (ie. There’s no such thing at a Christian sinner). I think John said something to the effect that If you think you have no sin, you are in darkness and if you think you did have but now you don’t, the the truth is not in you and you are yet in your sins…that’s my paraphrase of the passage in 1 John. However, I would also agree with rabbit13cam is he had said it that the impossibility is a Christian remaining in homosexuality over a lifetime is an impossibility. It is possible for a person to come to faith and remain in homosexuality for a time. But God will not allow us to remain in sin. He chastens those who he loves. If a the believer turns from that sin there will be other vices. He does not become sinless. But God will continue to work.

            Concerning the law, I would caution you in some of you wording. The writers of Hebrews and Galatians also tells us that God didn’t deal with people according to their ability to keep the law. The Law was not there to be kept and then God liked you. The Law was there to teach you that you couldn’t keep it and that you needed a Saviour. Jesus didn’t do away with the Law, He fulfilled it and so now, when we are in Christ, it is as though we are law keepers because Christ kept the law and we are now clothed in His righteousness.

          • Dan

            And seriously, you couldn’t have mutilated the meaning of Paul’s passage in 1 Cor 7 any worst than you did. Marriage is not an allowance. God didn’t not invent it for people that burn. That’s just an awful reductionist view of marriage in the bible. God said, it’s not good that man be alone…So what, he gave Adam Eve and then said, “I guess I shouldn’t have made her so pretty because now Adam is burning”? Come on. He says, be fruitful and multiply. He intended Adam to want Eve. Paul in no way puts that aside. Marriage is not an allowance. It’s a glorious creation of God from the beginning. Adam didn’t even have a sense of aloneness. God says It’s not good to that he’s alone and then doesn’t make Eve but rather sets Adam to naming the animals. It was only after that, that Adam knew there was no one for him. So really, you should reevaluate your understanding of marriage in the bible.

    • Broderick

      I think we need to draw the line between human weakness and God’s divine standards as enshrined in the Bible. When Jesus Christ was teaching on God’s standard on marriage in Matthew 19 v 3-9, the Pharisees whipped up the sentiments that Moses allowed them to put away their wives by giving her a writing of divorcement. But Jesus made it abundantly clear that divorce and re-marry was not part of God’s agenda and standard for marriage. At best, it is a permissive will introduced by Moses but from the beginning it was not so. The standard has been set by the Creator from the beginning and no human authority can amend or alter it, because He who made them from the very beginning knows the frailness and weaknesses of human nature yet he did not make it as a provision to lower the divine standards. So while human beings might have come to terms with divorce and re-marry, this cannot alter the divine laws or else, they will cease to be what they are because, human beings will find every excuse to lower the standards in order to accommodate their weaknesses. Homosexuality, is a gross perversion of the natural order, let the whole world vote for it, it will never make it right. It remains and abomination in the sight of God and abhorrence to humanity. While it is painful and sad to see men who had once proclaim the truth of he gospel fearlessly coming that low to oppose the very truth they once upheld, it is just one of the signs of the last days as many shall fall away from the truth giving ears to fables and seducing spirits.

    • davidc

      How is a gay person’s sexual orientation “unfixable”? Their lifestyle is a choice. Let me explain:

      I have heard the debate on whether a gay person is born that way or not. I believe that the Bible teaches that they were born that way. They were born with a tendency to life a sinful lifestyle. BUT, I will carry it a step further…We were all born that way. Because we were born into a sinful, fallen world, we were all born “that way”. We were all born with a sin nature. We were all born with a tendency toward sin; albeit different sins, but sin none the less. The question for each of us is: will we act upon our temptation to sin or not?

      • Steven Leapley

        LOVE THAT David! I think you are onto something…… I think that that shift that is happening is (1) a sign that the ‘end’ is coming closer as written in the Bible, and (2) that from a true Jesus stance….sin is sin…

        With that said we must take a step back and look at the same sex marriage thing from 2 angles..the first is a physical governmental angle…. if we have freedom of religion then how cna evangelicals force our values onto people who do not share…imagine the uproar (and the cling to the first amendment) the evangelical community would have if the President said that the USA was going to Islam as a national religion. the second angle is the Jesus angle.. Yes, the Bible talks about it as sin…yes we should be standing firm against sin…..but we are picking and choosing too much about which sin to hold onto and which sin to abhor.. Funny how I see way too many preachers degrading those who are homosexuals…..while overweight eating their greasy heart-attack burger..last time I read the Bible gluttony was a major sin as well…..

        So there is a fine line we need to walk……unfortunately, we walk it to many times on the side that makes us feel good rather than how Jesus would walk it

        • livingmartyrs

          You’ve certainly added to the complexity, Steven. How about if our new “pet sin” was pride — your last line would effectively convict us all!

          • Drummie

            Aren’t we all guilty?

          • Hersh, or is it Harsh

            Yes we are (serious moment)

        • Ben

          Steven, good morning, you said something that we should standing frim against sin, how and what scripture do you find this. but your right sin is sin. is there a degree of sin, just as there isn’t a degree in love. why don’t we talk about the grace that found us and the mercy that binds us. now reading the 1Corth. chapter 13. I have question, in what condition where you when Jesus came into your heart or introduced Him self to you? and are you know free from you flesh and do not sin not even in thought, just asking. do we as Christian talk to the sinner or the unsaved about sin or do we speak about the love of God, even to the fallen wounded saints. why don’t you study acts chapter 26. how Jesus talked to the murdering Paul. Can you respond please

        • Drummie

          How many “heart attack” burger-eaters transmitted a deadly and incurable disease to their spouse or sexual “partner” because of gluttony? It has been proven that gay men live a much shorter life than their heterosexual counterparts. They suffer a much higher incidence of sexually transmitted diseases, drug and alcohol abuse, and psychological problems and AIDS is the killer. Gluttony is a sin but it doesn’t kill me if you are gluttonous. Not a valid comparison IMO. The Church must continue to lead us to faith and repentance, not cosign our sin.

          • N. Sacry

            If you were being shunned and judged for your sexual orientation for most of your life, You too would be more prone to drug and alcohol abuse, stress diseases, and psychological problems. ITs so easy to judge when you are born with the normal and acceptable sexual orientation. I know many good people who have known from an early age that their sexual attraction was different, but that what they felt was “shameful”, an it caused great anguish for them. Just recently a man I knew who was afraid to admit to his sexual orientation and fought it all his life, drank himself do death. He did not fit in either life style, and was deeply unhappy.

          • Hersh, or is it Harsh

            Hey Drummie… (I like your name because I’m a drummer) about “Gluttony is a sin but it doesn’t kill me if you are gluttonous.” Once, when I was older I was married to a fat lady and I was killed in my sleep when she rolled over on me. So YES gluttony can kill innocent people as I am living proof!!! Yes… I are an idiot…. but at least I’m laughing at myself!

          • Carol Thomas

            OMG that is the most ridiculous comment. Obesity is one of the major factors in many diseases!! Far more people die from obesity related diseases that from sexually transmitted diseases. Also, I am sure the major percentage of alcoholics and drug addicts are heterosexuals. And don’t worry Drummie….YOU won’t die of AIDS because two gay men who love each other are having as sexual relationship!

        • agrclemsonfarmn

          s I said in our weekly discussion group; homosexuality is a sin according to Christian Law, so if a “gay: can be absorbed into the church family then an adultere or a polygamist can so be. sin = sin

      • C.Brian Ross

        “I believe that the Bible teaches that they were born that way.”

        As I read on, I quickly realised what you were actually saying. However, it may not have been the wisest thing to put in print! Firstly, you leave yourself open to the question: “Where, in the Bible, is this teaching?” Secondly, it has been conclusively proven that the so-called “gay gene” does not exist!

        The people who used to believe “it’s in the stars” now think “it’s in
        the genes,” and those people are just as wisely governed as ever!!

      • steve

        I think you miss the fact that the Word speaks of born eunuchs. Those who were born as such today must be embraced and loved by the church.

        As for preaching “gayness” any differently than any other sexual sin by making it a mega sin, says to me that the log needs to be removed from your eye. So Rob Bell’s message of love echoes Jesus’ heart.

        I will continue to pray for those whose apostasy has them preaching hate in His name.

        • Drummie

          How is it “love” when you support someone in a lifestyle that will kill them earlier than if they did not live it? Love is sometimes tough but still love. Just as in the mention of the “heart-attack” burger, are you going to promote gluttony to someone that is morbidly obese and call that love?

        • pastorbmiller

          There is a difference between an eunuch and choosing the gay lifestyle. Satan tempts us all with whatever sin he can throw at us. It is a choice to be “gay”, being born as an eunuch is not. Eunuch doesn’t mean gay.

          • agrclemsonfarmn

            they were castrated emasculated to guard the ladies– simple enough.

        • $27626823

          I don’t think so.. as long and the two love each other as fraternal love – no sex involved – it will echoes Jesus’s heart.
          ‘Preaching hate’ ? you might feel is hate because you don’t get away with carrying on with what your flesh calls you to do, oppressing/ignoring instead what your heart ought to do. I preach/encourage right behavior.

      • Carol Thomas

        So, what exactly is the “gay lifestyle”? That term is so pejorative. I am sure when you use that term you are not talking about a long term committed, monogamous, loving relationship between two adults. And I guess the “choice” that they have is to either live a lonely life devoid of love and partnership or to be cast into hell? If God created them gay, then why is it a sin for them to find love with another person who shares their sexual orientation?

    • Dave Ekstrom

      Some excellent discussion here and the responses below. I appreciate the spirit in which you write. But here’s my take. There is nothing new about homosexuality. This isn’t some new phenomena. There is nothing new politically about homosexuality. At the time of the NT, it was accepted by the pagans and even celebrated by rulers. So what is driving any change in the Church’s position? Why must the Church change its position now? To market our product better? To avoid persecution? To improve our image? To appease the media? Perhaps to show love? So the Bible isn’t showing love and we have to revise it? Is flattering people or telling falsehood to people showing love? Saying that since we are coping with divorce, we must also accept gay marriage is like saying that we should get the measles because we have the mumps. That makes no sense to me. Having said all that, bro., I do feel the problem. But let’s be faithful to God’s word and trust that His way is best.

    • Heim

      Absolutely! God loves all people and we’re called to love all people. Loving them doesn’t mean we accept their actions or beliefs, but Believers can’t ignore the elephant in the room: LOVE. The closer a “sinner” comes to Jesus, the more the person becomes like Jesus. Religion can’t fix a sinner no more than it can keep a Believer awake during a sermon.

    • Andy Harper

      Fantastic response! Well said!

    • Drummie

      What can not be easily fixed requires dependence upon and faith in God. I can not fix my self nor you. But with God, I can be healed. So can others if they turn to God. The problem I see with most in the glbtq community, they do not see that anything NEEDS to be fixed, in fact their campaign for approval (not acceptance, they are accepted) has been built on the premise that it can not be fixed. That says one of two things, either they do not want it to be fixed, or will not turn to God and try. Either way they will be living an unrepentant life that denies God. Until they accept that they are broken humans they have no hope.

      • pastorbmiller

        Excellent! That is exactly why they want gay marriage. It would validate their desire to stay in their lifestyle and give credence to their claim they cannot be fixed (born this way).

      • balasamson

        spot on answer

    • RAMJR

      Proverbs 6:12-19:

      What are worthless and wicked people like? They are constant liars, signaling their deceit with a wink of the eye, a nudge of the foot, or the wiggle of fingers.

      Their perverted hearts plot evil, and they constantly stir up trouble.

      But they will be destroyed suddenly, broken in an instant beyond all hope of healing.

      There are six things the LORD hates…no, seven things he detests: haughty eyes,
      a lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil, feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person who sows discord in a family.

    • P.J.

      In the Old Testament, God allowed a “writing of divorcement” yet stood firm against homosexuality. Jesus confirmed this in the New Testament when asked about marriage. First, He upheld the creation model – one man and one woman – and then gave the basis for what we call the “innocent party” theology. How can you be confused as to whether He is “leading us in a similar shift”? You are comparing marriage – created and ordained by God – to perversity which He clearly condemns in His Word. And why is homosexual behavior “unfixable”? There are many who have been redeemed from this lifestyle – and homosexual preference is not in the genetic code. Would we endorse alcoholism? Or other sexual orientations such as necrophilia, bestiality, or pedophilia? Why has the Gospel become so powerless that instead of being delivered, changed, we have to “limp together” if we truly have a Savior “who heals us”? Or is His healing power suddenly limited? Clearly, God loves all people in spite of their sin, and so should the church. But love demands that we teach the truth of God’s Word that always works to man’s benefit rather than endorsing sinful behavior that always leads to man’s detriment.

    • Laura Del Grosso Petherbridge

      It takes 2 people to get married but only 1 to get divorced. To compare divorce with same sex marriage is in error. As someone who has worked in divorce recovery ministry for over 25 years I assure you that “embracing and helping the divorced move on with life” is exactly what Jesus would do. As MOST of the people who come to the church during that season are the ones who did not want the divorce. It’s comments like this one that cause the wounded one to leave the church, and often they never come back.

    • $27626823

      ‘How is a gay person with an “unfixable” sexual orientation any different from a divorced person with an “unfixable” marriage?’
      One person may be attracted to the same sex, what he/she does with that feeling is another story. I don’t think your sexual feelings/desires makes up your ‘identity’. You are NOT gay, unless you choose to live like one. I know of many who live a life of celibacy by their own choice, others so involved into studying never find time for a partner etc., perhaps they knew of issues and found their own ways o deal with it without braking common or God’s laws. Can’t compare with divorce, good try here.

      “Increasingly I find myself …but invite broken people to join us as we limp together behind the Savior who heal us”..? Very touchy but just, too fast here, once you have repent to the WRONG you KNOW that you are doing, you might be allowed to limp out of the tunnel towards the His LIGHT and His Grace, provided you don’t stop or turn back towards sin. I wouldn’t count on any sympathy from God in the ‘meantime’ while you ‘ think’ about it…and I believe the way God works, he doesn’t choose to condemn but you will be far off HIS reach by your own behavior, HIS LOVE just can’t reach you…?? just saying.

    • cornelius

      I think the problem is that we’re following the church’s trend rather than Jesus. I say that, not including all churches but while we can’t shun the broken, we also don’t quit trying to fix. When I say “we”, I guess I should clarify that man, by himself, or the church made up of fallible people are falling short because we aren’t following Jesus. We aren’t calling sin sin. We aren’t repenting. We aren’t relying on the power of the Holy Spirit to make radical life change like He’s capable of. We are caving into the whims of society. Along with that, we are going along with false teachers like Bell instead of correcting him in love and turning back to Biblical truth. Even though I’ve been married quite awhile (21 years) and heterosexual, I’m still a broken sinner apart from Christ. Without the power of the Holy Spirit, I’m “unfixable” too. We can’t just throw up our hands because it’s messy and hard to change. You’re right, God has a “best case scenario” for everyone, His Word maps it out, so let’s follow that plan.

  • Rev. F. Mitchell

    He is opposing The word of God. He teaching false doctrine, just because the world excepts doesn’t mean God does.

    • Brad

      Don’t forget, we live in a secular nation. Not a theocracy. As Chris mentioned above, they are still gay and need Jesus whether or not they are “married.” Let’s spend our energy showing the love of Christ, not fighting a political battle with zero spiritual significance.

  • Mark Weinstein

    Perhaps it’s a shock value rating, the need to be heard, or just a wayward mind, but finding a pastor who once seemed in line with God’s word, and then falls away as his/her popularity rises, is not new. I don’t want to, nor will I, speak for Mr. Bell, but there will come a day of reconcile where pastors, select people who have been chosen to discern the word of God, will answer for their leadership; perhaps for some that will be an alarming day. We all sin, that’s our nature, but for anyone, especially a pastor, to look beyond that sin without giving a word of correction, looking only to the “we should love everyone” side of things, is misleading at best. We are accept, love, and help all peoples, but at no time do we ignore or even encourage anyone to sin. Hate the game, love the player. Mr. Bell, God is watching!

  • SICK

    God made Adam and Eve…NOT Adam and Steve.

    • Brad

      I understand what you’re trying to say, but this is the kind of short-sighted point that actually lessens the credibility of the church in the eyes of the world. Let’s try to be intelligent and thoughtful with our comments.

  • Trevor

    What frustrates me is how people like this call themselves Christians and even evangelicals, same for the lesbian and gay movement. If they can’t accept the Bible they should go and make up their own religion and call it something else so hat the waters are not continually muddied.

    Rob Bell is not a Christian, he is not born again. Love wins showed that. The rest of his stuff is just the fruit of an unregenerate mind – ‘the flesh’. That’s not judgmental as Jesus o test and know the fruit of those who claim to speak in his name. Bells fruit is wrotten.

  • Steven Hamman Sr.

    He is a disgrace to the Kingdom of God and should resign and shut his mouth.

    • Tom

      So are people who utter hateful words such as this. How about we pray for him and ask for God’s grace in his life?

  • cwbraughton

    It is easier to teach what people already know than it is to teach Truth. It is a shame Mr. Bell has decided to take the easy and non-persecuted route. You dismiss much more of Scripture than just the topic in disregard.

  • Keith S.

    Some things change in time. That makes it a trend not truth. Statistics change the perception of truth, but stats don’t represent truth. If truth changed every time the stats or trends changed then our theology would be like shifting sand. God’s word has been an anchor for the church in changing times. Let’s not let “change” change what we hold on too. Change our approach? By all means. Gain greater understanding? Always. Different applications? Ever changing. However, God never changes! Therefore, having timeless knowledge, His words (truth) are not subject to change. They are not affected by statistics or trends. They remain the measuring stick for all stats and trends. Our understanding of what is going on in our world (its changes) must remain tethered to the timeless truths of His Word. What we must focus on is that love has no qualifications! Lets love everyone equally.

  • Jared

    I have a thought that I’d like to throw out. Its one thats been in my heart the last few months concerning this topic and it may be more a question than a thought but I would really like some feedback on this.

    Let me begin by saying that I believe that marriage was designed by God and that all marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman and God. I believe homosexuality, while difficult, is still a form of sexual immorality and is clearly sinful. I believe that homosexuality is a departure from what God has created a person to be and is a rejection of his design. I also believe that there is no such thing as “Gay Marriage” because I don’t believe God honors that as a marriage.

    That said, I keep having a reoccurring thought pop in my head. How do I reconcile my personal spiritual beliefs with a non-spiritual political system? Let me explain this a bit more. How do I rightfully force my personal beliefs (however correct they are) on someone who doesn’t believe the same? By voting or taking a stance on Gay Marriage that takes away their right, am I limiting their God given free will?

    I’m not sure if that even explains the conflict I’m having on this topic. Its kind of like telling non-believers not to listen to profanity laced music because I don’t think its right. That doesn’t seem to be the right way to show them the love of Christ. So if I tell a world that supports homosexuality that they can’t “marry” because of my personal beliefs, is that still showing them love?

    The opposite would be to support their right to live their lives however they see fit but still oppose homosexuality. Oxymoron? Do we oppose a legal divorce because its a sin?

    I think I’ve rambled more than written clearly but I hope this makes some kind of sense.
    I’d love some feedback!

    • Mark Doebler

      Jared, I totally understand the dilemma you feel. I’ve had to work through this myself. I think the primary problem for us as Christ-followers is the blatant effort to redefine a word that has been used since the beginning of history to mean a man and a woman in a covenant relationship. Biblically, we know that marriage is a picture of the relationship between Jesus Christ and his church. While the unredeemed world doesn’t get that, we do. And to redefine the term is to completely pollute the picture. This is totally unacceptable. On the other hand, we live in a democracy, not a theocracy. So who are we to impose our biblical beliefs on a culture that is no longer willing to live within shouting distance of biblical morals? This is where the rubber meets the road for me. I don’t think ANYONE, myself, or any of the staunchest opponents of homosexuality, would protest legal protections for homosexual couples. That’s the reality of living under our Constitution. While I may disagree all day long with their choices and lifestyles, if it’s not illegal, then they should enjoy equal protection under the law. And in many states, they do. They are called “Civil Unions”. As I understand it, civil unions grant basically the same rights and privileges of marriage, but do not utilize the term. Theoretically, this is what the gay community is asking for. But if that were true, then they would be satisfied with winning these legal freedoms to operate in a similar fashion as married couples. However, it has gone far beyond that. Because Satan will do everything he can to mar the image of Christ. So it is not truly a matter of legal status. It has become spiritual warfare to destroy this beautiful biblical picture of Christ and his church. I would suggest that most in the LGBT community have no idea of the role they are actually playing in this spiritual battle….but we, as believers, should recognize it for what it is and address it accordlingly. Equal rights….ABSOLUTELY! Redefine marriage? NEVER! That’s my take.

    • JustinF

      My fear is that our govt then may “require” churches & ministers to perform these “marriage” ceremonies, regardless of their belief on the matter. The govt never goes backwards with legislation, but always progresses. “What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace.”-John Wesley

      • GC1

        The government doesn’t require churches to perform any marriages now. They won’t when gay marriage is legal either. Think about how many marriages are legal but not all churches accept them. Like in the Catholic church where you can’t marry someone of another faith. The priest isn’t forced to marry a couple of mixed religions. Pastors get to decide who they will and will not marry. That’s part of the freedom of religion. That doesn’t mean those couples can’t marry, just that individual churches don’t have to do it.

        • JustinF

          I disagree. Look at Canada & Denmark. The two countries have already done so in multiple instances. The day is coming where the Church’s “Tax-exemption” will be threatened if It does not progress with the sanctions of the current culture.

          • livingmartyrs

            JustinF, please recognise that “tax-exemption” is a privilege, not a right. If your convictions are set to strongly against your “host” culture, it follows that you will not have access to rights and freedoms that it extends.

            You may see this as persecution, but to me it is merely cause and effect.

            Furthermore, if the church is claiming the right to restrict other people’s rights, we are at least putting ourselves in awkward position, if not an outright untenable and hypocritical one.

          • JustinF

            livingmartyrs, I totally agree with you on the tax-exemption. My personal view is that, we should not adopt it. BUT it could be used as leverage versus a church’s message or stance. ALSO, should govt tax money twice?? Since this is what would happen… Just a thought-

            “Rights”- Should we then allow polygamy,Human-animal marriage, inter-family marriage? Where does it end? Our problem on this issue is our terms are too relative…

          • JustinF

            Didn’t the culture also think prayer in schools, Bible reading, and teaching Creation in schools to be an infringement on someone’s rights? Now we complain of their nonexistence, and our kids are taught the ridiculously irrational view of Evolution…

          • livingmartyrs

            So much science, study, investigation and testing has all pointed to and reinforced something that is “ridiculously irrational”? Come on, JustinF. You can do better than that!

          • JustinF

            Actually, there is NO support for the Theory of Evolution! You should read some science from the guys at “answers in genesis”. To discredit Genesis 1, as metaphoric or allegorical is to dismiss any further point that can be made from the Scriptures. God’s literal 24hr/day Creation sets the precedent for all other Scriptural interpretation. The idea of macroevolution is ludicrous, and un-Biblical! If i decide Genesis 1 is not literal, then what have you for the rest of Scripture? Can we pick and choose portions we like/ dislike? VERY slippery slope…

        • JustinF

          BTW-although, sure, the argument for “freedom for all” seems rational, we are guided by the Scriptures that may not always “seem” rational (Prov 14). The Bible, in it’s entirety, instructs us in the correct way to live, AND since we live in a country where we are able to be instrumental in the law of the land, why not press Biblical, Judaic Christian values?? Whether we like it or not, the other side (Secularism) is trying to press it’s values on us. Are we not supposed to be the conscience of our culture?? The Church has been given the instruction manual for existence here on Earth, therefore we are to be the communicators of it to society. (1 Chronicles 12 -The people of Issachar)

          • Chris

            No, we are not the conscience of our culture. God looks at the heart of every man, not the performance of the whole. We cannot, in any way, resolve any issues in the hearts of others. Period. All we can do is be a light in the darkness and share the love of Christ with those who need Him. That said, yes! We should be involved in the political system and should vote as we see fit. Heck, vote against gay marriage if you want to. I just suggest you do it in private. Gay marriage is not an issue worth the damage we (the church) are doing. They are still gay, and still need Jesus, whether they get married or not. Getting legally married doesn’t make them any more gay than they already are. The sin is already there, and this political issue has ZERO effect on that! Yet we fight so hard against it, which only minimizes our ability to minister to those people. All they know of Christians is that they continually speak against their equal rights and view them as lesser
            citizens (Don’t believe me? Find a homosexual and ask them.). Our purpose and goal on this earth is to worship our Lord and to spread the name of Jesus. Well, I fear that our participation in this political fight is damaging our ability to do that. What do you think God cares more about? Preventing a secular nation from allowing two men or two women to have the right to hospital visitation, or that we maintain
            healthy relationships based on love with EVERYONE (not just other Christians or people we like) that allows us to speak life into them and share the love of Christ with them?

          • JustinF

            “They are still gay, and still need Jesus, whether they get married or not.” So my belief, based on Scripture, that we should not progress further with this issue has no bearing upon the Gospel’s Message. “What do you think God cares more about?” Is it possible He cares for both?? I do LOVE my neighbors, by promoting what the Bible says is best for them. Like I said earlier, irreligion is trying to push it’s view into our govt., so why should we not try and promote ours, instead (Since we know it to be best)? No one can come to the Son, unless the Father wills (John 14). So, since the Spirit must be instrumental for a person to come to Salvation, then why does my stance on God’s Word dull that down? It doesn’t! The day that Gay Marriage is legalized, I will not lose sleep over it, BUT I will know that I stood firm where God instructed me, through His Word. If, like you said, God only looks at my heart (which I agree with), which will He be more pleased with, the fact that I stood firm on His Word against a wave of other’s following of the secular culture, or that I followed the World’s idea of what is right? No Thank You, I’ll stand with Him & His teachings. ALSO I will not cowardly cast any vote “in private”. My view of the world is based on the Bible & God’s revelation to me, therefore everything I do is based upon that, including my voting to even my (seemingly, minuscule) eating habits.

          • livingmartyrs

            Godly courage cuts both ways, Dave. Let me spin your same question the other way: would God be more pleased with me upholding a legalistic status quo, or would he be more pleased in me expressing his love to the marginalised?

            My sobering thought about all of this is that if Peter had spoken your words concerning the vision he had, pretty much none of us would be Christians today.

          • JustinF

            First of all, you are confusing a church’s legalism with a govt’s legal system. Moral statutes are never “legalistic status quo”, as you say, they are the principle that all of us are to follow. Am i a legalist b/c I follow God’s Laws? Absolutely not! So let me rephrase your question: Is God more pleased with me upholding his moral statutes, or by my expressing His love to the marginalized? The answer is both! the two go together. How can I speak the Gospel without living a life that supports it’s statutes? That would be hypocritical…

          • livingmartyrs

            Moral statutes become legalistic status quo the instant they are dogmatically and authoritatively imposed on someone else. This is precisely where the Pharisees got it wrong. If we want people to believe the same things we do we must make a case for them. Unfortunately the church has largely lost this ability, and instead tries to insist on being right, and calling all opposition irrelevant (or other worse names).

            The Bible is not fingers-out, seeking to point at and judge the world — in fact the way that I read Jesus *and* Paul, they preclude that attitude! The Bible is fingers-in, pointing out sin internally, and making people sensitive to the internal conviction of the Holy Spirit. Through all of Scripture, God is inviting, not insisting.

          • JustinF

            Do you consider the moral precedent “You shall not murder”(Exodus 20) to be legalism?? Moral statutes are NOT legalistic. Legalism would be dress codes, or certain Bible translations (additive doctrines) – Honestly, I view homosexuality the same way i view adultery/ sex outside of marriage (1 Cor 6), according to Paul’s words. So, following your rationale, my celibacy prior to my marriage was legalism?? Maybe you should begin citing Scripture for these theological ideas you have…

          • livingmartyrs

            So you are picking the level of what is a moral statute and what is legalism, right? That’s cool. So is everybody else. As a culture, we are now seeing that level change on same-sex relationships, particularly regarding the monogamous, committed ones. So then, it’s becoming just another moral issue, like every other moral issue. Trickier though, because it’s tied to identity, not choice.

            If my identity was to murder, then I would be locked up, because most people don’t appreciate being murder victims. An adulterer’s victims include anyone who is impacted by a breakdown of trust, like a spouse, family, community, etc.. But who is the victim of a gay relationship?

            As to whether your pre-marital celibacy was legalism or not, I couldn’t say. To be honest, mine probably had elements of legalism in it, but it was also a reasoned moral argument — hopefully more the latter than the former or I’m going to have a harder time explaining it to my daughter. :-)

            By making moral choices, you are accepting the consequences, just like I am with mine, and ultimately we are all responsible to God.

          • JustinF

            Your hint to moral relativism has just made this discussion become futile. If there are no absolutes, then why discuss? I appreciate the discussion… I’m out!

          • Chris

            Justin, yes, God cares about both. However, I’d ask you to point me to one place in Scripture where Jesus attempted to change the governmental laws at the time he walked the earth. He didn’t. He didn’t spend his time or energy level on that. Why? I suggest it’s because it doesn’t matter. In fact, I am willing to bet that Jesus doesn’t like the idea of a theocracy (which is basically what happens when we legislate morals based on any religion). He isn’t into forced compliance or
            allegiance. That’s not sincere. So instead, Jesus spent his time dining with the worst of the worst. He went to them, as people. He worked on their heart. He didn’t try to make the law do that for him. That’s basically what is happening here. Christians as a whole (speaking
            generally) spend WAY more time fighting against civil unions (or marriage, whatever. It amounts to the same thing – a legally appointed set of benefits) than they do ministering to people in the homosexual community. Again, ask a homosexual and see what they say. Heck,
            look at the recent Barna group studies on the topic. The main opinion that homosexuals have of Christians is that we view them as lesser citizens and want to keep certain rights away from them. How is this
            possible?!?! How do they not view us as a people group who love them as Jesus did? How is it that hate and discrimination is the first thing that comes to mind? Simple: it’s what we put our energy into. And, might I again add, this thing we’re doing is actually CONTRADICTING a very important commandment: To go and make disciples. How is it contradicting? Because it builds a wall that renders us unable to credibly speak into their lives with the love of Christ. Telling them they are immoral sinners who don’t deserve the same CIVIL (aka, secular) rights as we do is not “making disciples.” We need to be able to speak into them openly, and be received openly before change can take place. Look at Jesus: He built relationships. He reached out. That ALWAYS came before “sin no more.” In every single case. We’ve got this backward, and I believe it grieves the Lord.

    • mikesensei

      My view is that since government did not establish the institution of marriage, it has no right to define it. Just like it has no authority to alter the law of gravity or change the seasons. I’m not married to my wife because some government says I am, I’m married to her because I made a vow and entered a covenant before God. I don’t need man’s approval to validate my love and my relationship with my wife. If I did, that would demean the covenant I made.

      Today, homosexuals have practically all the possible “benefits” of marriage and nobody is trying to stop them or take those freedoms away from them. They can already live their lives as they see fit, just without the official “stamp of approval” from government. If your relationship is real, why do you need the approval of others?

      • Chris

        This isn’t true. That is the whole purpose of the debate. They want some of those same benefits, such as the tax benefits and visitation rights. And fine, let’s call it a “civil union.” Would that actually change your mind? The world saying something is “marriage” is not the same as God saying something is “marriage.”

  • girlfollowing

    Is this man a believer in the christ who came in the flesh died on the cross overcame satan sin death and hell in order to forgive mankind for the things we have done against his law. Rob Bell the one and only GOD who art in heaven created Adam and Eve for a reason let us not condemn gay people because that would make us judgemental and only GOD can judge but they do need to know that there is a heaven and a hell and they have a choice between eternity and damnation.

  • njsee56

    Duh? Why is that not a surprise — Another Christian leader bowing to the PC gods. Rob’s god sounds a lot like him!

  • Pastor William (Bill) Perkins

    the bible is clear that even the elect will be led astray. Micah 3:6 “I am the Lord thy God I change not.” The bible is clear we are come out of the world, we are to stay clear of man’s corrupted doctrine. Jesus stated “for the doctrines and traditions of men will lead you astray” He did not say they might. We are were we are today because as the christian world goes has decided to shun God and as Kyle Idleman says most of christian’s today are just fans. The bible is God’s book from page one to the end of revelation take the time to study it and live it than maybe God’s blessings will return.

    • C.Brian Ross

      With respect, Matt.24:22-24 indicates, clearly, that the elect will NOT be led astray – indeed, that it is impossible to so lead them!

  • Dr J D Stauffer, DMin

    Rob Bell has become more about Rob Bell than Jesus Christ. His open liberal acceptance seems right except that he has set aside Scripture. Loving and accepting the gal, lesbian, bisexual into your congregation for the ministering to the same should occur. Changing the message of Scripture to build a church for the being liked by the congregation by approving licentious behavior is not evangelism nor honest. I have always welcomed sinners to hear the gospel. I never have short circuited the message. Noted or not Rob Bell needs to reconsider calling himself a Christian minister. His message is dangerous and will not bring anyone to a Scriptural relationship with God.

  • John

    Thanks for sharing this, Brian. And thanks for sharing it with a reminder that one of our greatest purposes is to love our neighbor as ourselves. I am saddened by Bell’s stance and grieved that one of the potentially great minds of our day has drifted to a question all and embrace all mentality. I will always appreciate Velvet Elvis for its place in Christian history, but unless something changes quickly, I doubt Bell’s future works will be on my radar.

  • Lee

    Reading Bell’s comments, he keeps saying I think, not what the Bible says. Beware of so called Christians giving THEIR opinion and not saying Thus says the LORD.

  • Zelda Willis

    Just sickened to my stomach over all the “opinions” and “ideals” of man, instead of biblical standards..

  • Freddy

    I don’t understand why there is so much hate for the gays. You do know if you read your history that gays have been around longer than the belief of the current religions.

    • StandUpForJesus

      There is no hates for the gays Freddy. There is hate for the gays sin, not the person committing the sin. There’s a difference. The bible is very clear on what God defines as sin and as Christians we honor God’s word because we trust God to know what’s best for us. Therefore, we do our best to stay away from the things He and His Son Jesus say are sin. No one is perfect. I am not perfect. This is why I need a perfect Savior-Jesus Christ. Out of gratitude for Jesus dying to save me from the power of sin’s deathly grip, I now wholeheartedly do my best to serve him with a pure life because that is what He expects of me. I don’t try to live perfect to get saved because good works do not save me. Only Jesus saves and He knows what is best for me. If Jesus saves us and then says, “go and sin no more” He is saying, “go and stop doing what is displeasing to God.” The bible says homosexuality is displeasing to God. Therefore, I don’t enter into a homosexual lifestyle. The bible says murder is displeasing to God, therefore I don’t commit murder. The bible says adultery is displeasing to God. Therefore I don’t commit adultery. The list goes on and on. God commanded us to refrain from these sins in the Old Testament and Jesus affirmed we are to still refrain from these sins in the New Testament. Sin destroys lives. It is satan’s tool to fulfill his mission statement to kill, steal, and destroy. Thankfully Jesus came to give us life and life in abundance. This abundant life includes power to overcome sin that satan uses to tempt us with in order to bring destruction into our lives. Jesus saves us from the sin of death (giving us eternal life) and gives us power over sin in this life until He returns for us. I trust Him. He knows what is best for me.

    • amos8

      “I don’t understand why there is so much hate for the gays.”

      This is like saying, “I don’t understand why there is so much hate for … broken bones.” (or flat tires, or “junk food,” or laziness, or false teachers, or ….)

      There is no “hate” for the individual, rather there is great concern for the individual and what might be causing pain and problems for that individual. Perhaps we could say that there is, or should be, “hate” for the problems or sin that is hurting others. (see Ps 119:128,163)

      To play the hate card is often an attempt to “victimize” one party (I’m not saying this is your intent, I don’t know what your motives are) and it only serves to deceptively divert the focus and concern to a false premise.

      We might disagree when it comes to homosexuality and sin, but, ironically, to sit in judgment of the motives of others … not to mention to twist and pervert their intent … is a huge reason why honest dialogue gets shut down and why people remain in the destructive lifestyles.

      Please reconsider your judgment and condemnation

  • StandUpForJesus

    Brian stated in this article, “When Rob Bell built his platform”. This is the problem. Rob built his own platform so he can speak whatever he desires. At some point “his” platform built to bring “him” glory will fall. Question is, when are we as Christian leaders going to stop promoting him by giving him place in our articles? We are just as guilty for supporting “his” platform.
    Psalm 75 says, “For promotion (exaltation) comes neither from the east nor from the west nor from the south. But God is the Judge: He puts down one, and exalts another.

  • David

    I believe that there is no such thing as same sex marriage. Marriage by definition is between a man and a woman. There are same sex unions but they are not marriages as there can be no procreation.

    We cannot expect government which is a political entity to conform with our Christian beliefs and values. Same sex union is here to stay. If people want to enter the kingdom of God they have to repent and be born again. Until then, we must love the sinner as Jesus did.

  • Lena

    No surprise for me. He came to Willow Creek to speak and i could never follow through what he was telling us. He had no direction or knowing that JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY WAY.
    We need to pray for his heart.

  • Ernie McLean

    Okay, just a few thoughts of mine. # 1 I think we all agree to disagree with Rob Bell. #2 I think we have all sinned. #3 I hate sin, your sin, my sin, and your neighbors sin. #4 It sure looks like we are contiuning on one sin and being judgmental about a certain sin or group of people as if we don’t love them, don’t welcome them to our church and don’t even want to be around them. #5 Jesus said it’s the sick who need a doctor and we aren’t going to change lives by casting out a group of people and making them feel like they are unworthy of anything but the sinful life they have lived. #6 If we welcome people to church, teach them truth and point them to Jesus, He will deal with their sin, but I cannot save anyone or change anyone myself. #7 You are welcome to come to church with me whoever you might be or whatever you might have done in your past. I will show you love. I will not condone your sin or make excuses for it and I will be happy to show you what scripture says. Past that you and Jesus can deal with it. And I’m still going to love you, whether you are homeless, gay, have been to prison, or are on drugs. #8 Yes, it would be much easier to make people who are different feel uncomfortable so we don’t have to deal with them, have our own little clubhouse in a fancy building, dressed up nice. However, eternity might not be as comfortable.

  • Rob

    2 Timothy 3:1-5 “From such turn away.”

  • billiroman

    Like putting the frog in cold water then turning it onto boil. When things leak into the “church” slowly people don’t protest. Just a small change here and there to “blend” into societal norms. Then instead of being apart from the world, you are now part of the world. Nothing new under the sun.

  • uureverend

    Rob Bell is spot on, as usual. I expect modern day Pharisees and Sadducees will be up in arms, as it is their consistent response to change no matter who initiates it (even Jesus). The church needs to embrace religious and cultural pluralism if it expects to have a voice and a witness in the real world.

    • mkdb

      … except that the Bible teaches the EXACT OPPOSITE. I appreciate your stated desire to have a witness to the world (if that is what your saying) but perhaps we do not agree on what the Bible says is the way we should go about it.

      If the Bible is not your supreme standard and authority, then we don’t have much to say.

      But if it is, and if you want to abide by God’s Word, and if you don’t want to be a 21st century “Pharisee or Sadducee” [who were guilty of violating Scripture AND making up their own “tradition” based on their “culture,” yet you seem to be suggesting that embracing the culture is good] then I suggest you highly consider the following:

      The church is to be “set apart” from the “culture” around it (the “called out” ones). God’s people are called NOT to embrace or mimic the beliefs and practices of the surrounding culture….

      “…You MUST NOT do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you MUST NOT do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. DO NOT follow their practices. You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. Keep my decrees and laws…”

      What is more, if you (or the church) wants to “have a voice and a witness in the real word” then the principles for doing so are clear, As always, when we trust and obey and follow GOD”s WORD then it will have a profound impact on those around them…

      “See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. OBSERVE THEM CAREFULLY, FOR THIS WILL SHOW YOUR WISDOM AND UNDERSTANDING TO THE NATIONS, WHO WILL HEAR ABOUT ALL THESE DECREES AND SAY, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?”

      Obviously, however, the world HATES the Word, and it will hate those who teach it. To try to be friends with the world in order to reach the world is not only a violation of God’s Word and desire (James 4), but it leads to one compromise after another. Rob Bell and many others who were at the genesis of the emergent church started off with this faulty premise, and years later … here we are with more and more compromises of God’s Word. 5 years, or 10 years from now it will look even worse!

      • Matthew

        I think you forgot the Gospel here. Another legalist who embraces the salvation enacted by God and thinks they can use that to redouble their efforts to follow the law… I encourage you to keep trying. Maybe one day you will realize in your desperation and futility that only God can make you righteous, and He accomplished that 2,000 years ago on a cross. As believers, we are not of the world in that our source of love and acceptance comes from what God has already done, not what we can do for Him. If we sin less, it is only through the knowledge of our Father’s love for us. We don’t go seeking to find the things God has provided for us in things of the world, because God is there providing them for us. That is the Word, and it is what the Bible drives us to. Salvation through the Good News, because we can’t and won’t ever be able to do it on our own, or at all really!

        • mkdb

          HUH!?! What does this have to do with what i wrote?

          Did you not just read what Amos8 wrote about those who judge others, especially with the word “legalist”? Were you just trying to prove his point, or was something else at play?

          So I quote several verses to show that faithfulness to God’s Word has an impact on the cultures around us (and that God’s Word shows us not to follow or embrace “cultural diversity”), and then you show up to condemn me as a “legalist”? Nice.

          • Matthew

            It has everything to do with what you wrote! I do not know your heart, but your words seem to indicate your bondage to the law. I hardly think pointing that out and pointing you to the Gospel is condemning. You seem to be making a parallel between ‘merica and Israel here and citing verses that are supposed to reflect how we are to act as a body in this nation. I think you are using the Old Testament and the law for the wrong purposes. If the Bible is your authority, make the entire Bible your authority!

          • mkdb

            “I do not know your heart, but your words seem to indicate your bondage to the law.”

            Yes, that is correct, you don’t know my heart, but that did not stop you from pronouncing a summary judgment on me/my heart. YET you will not clearly and fully take responsibility for your “legalist” attempt to diminish, label, judge, dismiss, and condemn others (and doing so in such an extremely inaccurately way).

            Taking responsibility is, ironically, a major part of the Gospel. If you are familiar with the true Gospel then I have no doubt that you will make this confession.

            There are many ironies here: for example, you are claiming superiority and the high ground of being against legalism, yet you sit in judgment of others comments for what you (mis)perceive to be any lack of the “gospel.” Also, the Old Covenant (“the letter” in Paul’s words) “kills,” and your words are bringing death, not life. There is no good fruit from your attitude and actions.

            In addition, you erroneously accuse me of not making the “entire Bible” my authority … because I quote the OT. Yet you are condemning me and look at with disdain those who rely on 39 books, in addition to the other 27? All while you look down on using the OT?! If you claim to have the entire Bible as your authority, then why look down on the OT or those that quote from it.

            “Bondage to the law”??? In your “judgment” you deemed me this way because I quoted the Old Testament? Then you must also judge/condemn Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc as being in “bondage to the law”!

            You stated that you pointed me to the Gospel? How? To quote someone else, “You keep using that word, I don’t think it means what YOU think it means.” Where your attempts at mocking my “efforts” part of pointing me to the gospel? That is so appealing!

            Straining at gnat in the comments of others while swallowing a camel is a sign of Pharisiacal “legalism.” That sure seems to fit your pattern in this comment section. You have mistakenly read into my comments (and that of at least one other) and accused them of somehow missing the gospel. Where not talking about the gospel here (at least directly). Where talking about Homosexuality and how to best influence “the culture” around us.

            “You seem to be making a parallel between ‘merica and Israel here and
            citing verses that are supposed to reflect how we are to act as a body
            in this nation.”

            It is one thing to be “judgmental” and to judge others as a “legalist” when you, yourself, are acting like a legalist, but you have taken it to greater destruction by being so errant in your judgments!! As Jesus said, “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.” Feel free to judge, but at least be accurate, and use the right standard.

            First, who said this has anything to do with “‘merica”? Your lack of discernment is stunning! Does God say in the Pentateuch, “Hey everyone, just so you know, living according to my Words/Commands only works for Israel at this point in time. Don’t think it will impact any other nations in the future.” Have you not read in the New Testament (and the rest of the OT) the emphasis on the Word, on how living according to the Word is loving God and others? So now that I quote the OT you judge that I am a legalist who is does not know the gospel or New Covenant, and that I am somehow trying to earn my salvation? I can’t remember the last time a saw such an inaccurate judgment! Don’t you see how absurd this is? Can you not “confess” your sins? (again, the gospel)

            The principles in Deuteronomy and Leviticus don’t apply to the church? If so, which parts of the OT do we get to cut out? Genesis? Proverbs?

            Can I suggest that you seek someone out to disciple you? Is there a pastor in your church, or a youth leader who can spend some time going over these things? “Authentic Christianity” (Ray Sedman) might be a good place to start, for many reasons, one of which is it teaches on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

          • livingmartyrs

            Hey mkdb, would you like to know how you come across? Honest question. Would you like me to state some of the things that I think you need to confess? If you’re all cool with everyone judging everyone, then you should really appreciate it, but I thought I’d at least take the courtesy of asking.

          • mkdb

            Go for it! (Matt 7:1-5; Gal 6:1; etc)

          • livingmartyrs

            I’m glad I asked, because it’s given me time to temper my response — I was going to judge you to make a point. I’ve decided that would be unhelpful and unwise. Your willingness to hear me has also re-established my own internal imperative to gentleness, so here goes.

            Your defensiveness is needlessly escalating a conflict with Matthew. You have things to learn from each other. But by guessing his motives in what you’ve perceived as guessing your motives — a phenomenon on his end that you have acknowledged is ironic — you have landed in meta-ironic territory. :-)

            No one else on Earth may have exactly the same take regarding the interaction between the Old Testament and the New Testament as you do. (It’s quite possible that even reading your chosen author wouldn’t change Matthew’s mind.) That’s okay. You will find more success in making a case for what you love and what matters to you, then trying to pick at what bothers you in someone else. (The same applies to Matthew, of course, and me too.)

            Christ transcends a lot of differences, but where we try to angrily reinforce our divisions, instead of humbly appealing to his grace, we don’t allow his grace to operate. To put it bluntly, that sucks (and I say that with the experience of the victim, and the perpetrator).

            Jesus said do unto others what you would have them do unto you. That includes things like guess motives, project fears and assume the worst of. We can all do better, especially in a discussion of this level of nuance and import. There are souls on the line, and there is room for many different ways of reaching them.

          • mkdb

            Thanks for the words and for the insight…

            It can always be helpful to hear these things…

          • livingmartyrs

            You’re most welcome! Thank you for receiving it. :-)

          • Matthew

            I repeat that I did not condemn you. I claim no superiority. I’m just a sinner in need of salvation just like everyone else on this comment board! First calm down and read what I’m saying. My problem was with how you were using the scripture you quoted.

          • mkdb

            Wait, are you two different people? Or is this the same person under two different names?

            I merely wrote what I did to help you … take it or leave it.

          • Matthew

            Pretty sure I’m the same person throughout the comments. Why?

    • amos8

      “Pharisees and Sadducees” are frequently used, of course, as a pejorative terms that are often laced with disdain, judgmentalism, and a kind of reverse-elitism that is meant to demean and dismiss individuals and their valid concerns, points, and arguments.

      Few things are more ironic and hypocritical (judging, not to mention erroneously judging, labeling, condemning others for … judging).

      The worst part is that few that do this either care, or will admit their colossal mistake and sin.

      Many people are in the habit of throwing the term “Pharisee” (or “fundamentalist”) out whenever they don’t like someone, or when someone makes an assertion that they don’t like, cannot refute, etc. I would just caution you not to fall into the same trap.

      Also, I hope YOU, and others, would see the glaring and painful irony and hypocrisy of judging and condemning others as a “Pharisee” or “Legalist” or “Fundamentalist.” This is the old self-defeating fallacy of … “I judge and condemn you for judging and condemning.”

    • lee

      are you saying cultural pluralism in reference to truth. If there is pluralism in truth, then truth is not truth. There cannot be pluralism in truth, truth is not relative. The world of God is the standard for truth. therefore, what the world call truth is not in agreement with the world of God. If one uses the word of God as their basses for belief how can they go against the word of God when truth is revealed. there is no pluralism in truth. Now how do we offset this teaching in our church when the pastor fails to reveal truth. We must continue to teach truth regardless, propagate the gospel of the kingdom.

      • amos8

        “Feeling” trump truth. “Whatever works” trumps whatever is right … at least in the minds of the “Emerging Church” and “Postmodernism” and “Liberalism.” Therefore, you will never win an argument with truth.

        Teaching “truth” “does not work” in their minds (at least with “postmoderns”) so that is why they tried to minimize Bible teachings.

        They (the emerging church leaders like Bell, McLaren, etc) may or may not have been well intended, but their approach of making the audience sovereign and not the message has created the fall-out that we are all dealing with today.

  • steveh52

    A pervert

  • Andy Korenak

    He is a proven false teacher and will face judgement from God for leading people into a false liberal christianity that has departed from the truth of God’s word, law, grace, mercy…. He has corrupted many naive people who are not willing to think for themselves, who are unwilling to read the Bible and take responsibility for their lives, the sin that separates them from God. In humility and recognition of our shortcomings let us cry out to God, accept His salvation and redemption through His son Jesus Christ AND let us become obedient followers of Christ and the word and will of God instead of the gratification of flesh and ego!

  • tomtomz

    I am a gay man, married for 32 years with 2 wonderful kids, now happily partnered, I am a Bible breathing born again Christian now for more than 40 years, from my view point I am not into a difficult and painful lifestyle, I would not have chosen a gay lifestyle if I had had a choice, I am working off the deck the God gave me. I tried to ignore and bury myself in a closet for 32 years, for reasons I still don’t fully understand, my ex- filed for divorce more than 10 years ago. I went for counseling, he pulled me out of the closet in the first session…. Good timing, as I was tired of the general denial, what I felt was lying to God, my friends and to me, when the shrink outed me it felt like a great weight had been lifted off me. Some of the other bad things that were very problematic when I was growing up and married: anyplace we went, where casually dressed men were, I usually had to be someplace else, so I spent a lot of time in the kitchen with the women (I am a very good cook… lol)… bummer. I couldn’t go to the beach, pool parties, family gatherings and more, as I was scared half to death of any kind of untimely arousal, during my time in Cub/Boy Scouts, High School and the Army (2 yrs, Vietnam Vet) I was miserable due to common showers and sleeping settings. On coming out I lost my job almost immediately as a manufacturing manger in a large company and my family/friends turned their backs on me, nothing has changed in 10 years… I am fully retired now. I’ve been told to leave 3 different local evangelical churches, when I wouldn’t submit to their exorcism…. John 3:16 is the starting scripture, the rest is gravy …. I use the KJV ONLY, there are too many fairly recent translations/published interpretations that say almost anything you might want to read. Jer 1:5, God knew me before I was born; Mat 12:19 I was created different by Jesus. The homosexual references in the Bible, looking at the setting they were in, I suspect was an idolatry issue or just a drunk gang that wanted some entertainment as in Sodom (these types exist all over the US now), a party animal thing, those that live in a heathen lifestyle, into alcohol, drugs and orgy type things, they may go to a church once in a while, but God is not in their lives. I have found many that I have encountered when I visit different churches in my area, are out and out hypocrites or flatly don’t know the Lord. I am grateful that God has kept me in the cleft of his hand, during good times and bad….
    I have told you a little slice of my life for background info…. The GLBT movement is the current flavor of the month, leave it alone and GET on point, JESUS is the reason and not the diversions (god’s of this age in there many forms) that poison your heart and keep you from the love of Jesus…. If gay people want to get married, they will have the same perils and successes of a straight marriage, if they are heathens or Good Christians, what is it to you, they will stand before the White Throne as you will.

    • pjsr

      Is the Matthew 12:19 reference correct? I read it but don’t understand how it’s related to the topic.

    • tomtomz

      Thanks for responding;

      There are lots of bible translations available that say just about anything… I use the KJV ONLY, without of all the commentaries. John 3:16 says everything that needs to be said. Some scriptural references that I stand on: Matt.12:19…. homosexual is a fairly new word, but the reference to eunuch from birth is just as it says, someone that had no interest in females; eunuch’s man are probably men that were emasculated to guard a harem, where gay men of valor would probably have had no interest in women; the final word use represents those that were like John the Baptist or Jesus, shunning intimate contact with women for God’s work. Also see Jer 1:5, God knew who we were before we were in our mothers womb…. that should shut everyone up, then also check Ez.16:49-50 … Behold, This was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness in her and her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (50) And they were haughty, committed abominations (idolatry) before me, therefore I took them away as I saw good. Also, Ps.23:8-11… I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou should go: I will guide thee with mine eyes. (9) Be ye not as a horse, or the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee. (10) Many sorrows shall be to the wicked: but he that trusteth in the Lord, merry shall compass him about. (11) Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all that are upright in heart.
      As mentioned before, ANY mention of homosexual behavior in scripture is a reference to idolatrous behavior…. modern day … the club set, the Hollywood types, the party animals, greed, government leaders. There are straight people that do their thing daily and lead a normal lives, flip the coin and you have the nuts, the same is true of the gay community…. I am a gay man and I have trouble getting my head around some of the extremes I see, straight and gay…. BUT that is between them and God. When Jesus came to earth, he redefined the Ten Commandments into the rules concerning you and God and you and man….. this, interestingly enough forms a CROSS…. Love God with all your heart, mind, body and soul…. and Love you fellow man as yourself….. that’s a tall order for most people, especially men of the cloth, Jesus didn’t come (at this time) with a wipe and a sword, but with LOVE, loving them where they were at and out of what He wanted them not to be involved in by way of the Holy Spirit. The ideal marriage is between one man and one women, but He also made way for men to have as many wives and concubines (in whatever sex they took) as they could afford. If you are minding someone else’s business, then your EYE’s are OFF of Jesus…. If something bothers you, take it to prayer, God will do as is needed (that could mean putting love in into a stony heart too), remember Jesus said he could raise up these stones to speak for Him, He doesn’t need misguided mouths spilling there vomit out, Jesus condemned the Jewish leaders for the same reasons.

  • Antonio Enriquez

    As far as Rob Bell, I simply elect not to pay any mind to his nonsense, especially since it is not spirit-inspired, but man or society-driven. The word of God does not err, what was written thousands of years ago is applicable to our times today (! Samuel 15:29; Matthew 24:35; 1 Peter 1:22-25), end of story. Who am I (the clay) to tell the potter how He has determined what is right or wrong? There will always be someone who will contend with the interpretation of the scriptures with what their perception (influenced by those whom dwell on the earth) of what truth is or should mean.

  • PastorJeff

    The issue with sin is never “if the ship has sailed” but if the passengers accept and acknowledge they are on the wrong boat. Adultery, Gossip, Homosexuality, Lust and all other sins are equally disqualifying of God’s approval. But the question has never been “have I committed sin” but rather “do I accept that it is sin”. This is where the line between loving the sinner and hating the sin exists. Until I accept and acknowledge that my choices ARE sin I cannot be saved FROM my sin. All questions about Homosexuality in the church should be hinged on this point – Do they acknowledge it is sin? Do they accept that it is a wrong behavior that must eventually change for them to be right with God? We have all sinned and fallen short of God’s holy standard. We are all made right with God through Christ. However, we remain right with God not by our ability to live rightly but by our continued acceptance that God is right and we are wrong. We remain right with God by agreeing that God is right. I have yet to meet a homosexual christian who agrees that homosexuality is wrong. Once we allow ourselves to excuse one sin we must logically excuse them all and then we have undone the Cross and Christianity is lost. Loving the lost back into relationship with God always starts with agreement and agreement always starts with accepting a common standard of right and wrong. After all, like the Bible says “How can two walk together unless they agree.”

  • lee

    It is still an abomination before God regardless of what man may say. The church (born again believers) must continue to stand on the word of God. Man have their civil right to marry whomsoever they choose but, God said a man and a woman is called marriage. How can man redefine what God has ordained from the beginning, Marriage started with God not man.

  • Matthew

    Okay, here’s the thing. We love control, we love to feel like we have a part in our salvation, that we can make ourselves right before God, and God will respond and say that He accepts us because we have satisfied His demands. This is pride and self-righteousness and they are both huge sins. They are so huge, that they are addressed extensively throughout the Bible, which reveals the very character of God. They are the most hidden, least obvious sins and because of that, they can do the most damage.

    As Christians, we feel the need to point out the sins of the world around us, we have a compulsion to because if someone can get away with something, it robs us of the authorship of our own self-rightousness. We no longer have a hand in our rightstanding with God. In essence, control is taken from our hands. This can be applied to almost any outwardly obvious sin, be it drug abuse, gambling, sexual addiction, homosexuality, etc. If we aren’t making sure people know they are sinning and that they need to get those things under control, we can’t take credit for our own conquering of those sins.

    In doing this, we lose sight of the Gospel. The Good News! We love to take pet sins and make them the biggest issue, rally behind causes to change the civic laws of the society around us to make sure those sins aren’t allowed to occur as much, while our own pride and self-righteousness runs rampart in our hearts. We miss the point entirely and we steal beauty from the work of Christ, that should be a lighted city on a hill, calling all to it. The Gospel is attractive, and we make it ugly. All because we seek to get control of everyone else’s sins but our own.

    We are not the authors of our salvation. God did that on His own because he wanted to do it. He reconciled Himself to us through His own sacrifice because He decided to do that, not because we do anything to deserve it. He meets us in the midst of our wretchedness and He decides when and how He will do that. No one does good out of the acts of their flesh, not one and we seem to be missing that when we address these kinds of hot button topics. The message of the Gospel is that we can’t do anything to be more appealing to God, to please Him more, because He is already perfectly pleased with us. He looks at us and sees His perfect work on the cross and all we can do is believe and trust in that.

    So many Christians are saved by this and immediately move on to figuring out what to do about the sin in their lives. They seek to get themselves right with God when there is no right to be gotten. The only way to address sin is to know that you are dead to it and that God loves and accepts you in spite of yourself. That is where transformation occurs, and where God can use you to perform His works. But He will have that glory, that He was able to make good out of our evil. And that looks different for every person. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and we need to trust that God is strong enough to do that, to enact transformation in a believer’s life, and that it may not look exactly like the transformation that occurred in your life.

    This is the message of the Gospel that we need to share, and it is all we need share. Changing the laws of the land to help people be less sinful does absolutely nothing to preach the Good News. These things have existed as long as sin has been in the world, and gay marriage and more have all been permissible under the laws of the land in different societies throughout history. I feel that Rob Bell is putting the Gospel ahead of our pet sins and calling us to trust God as the author of our salvation and the good works in us, and that He will do it in His time not ours.

  • Sola Scriptura

    It is so sad that man wants his ears tickled and these days the the church is full of this man made theology not Scripture driven but flesh driven. Many will not get the conviction of the Holy Spirit who is the one who opens the blind eyes not by compromise but because of the Truth cutting like a knife to heal the wound of sin. Because of these watered down non biblical teachers many will be like sheep led to the slaughter..

  • Ben

    who is rob bell? what is rob bell? if all of you Christians are so right in up holding the righteousnesses of God, than why are you giving him so much of your time, the word says if a brother says he is a brother and continue to sin do not even have lunch with him. so what is the problem? does God the father need to be protected by his followers? i just thought i ask. allow why is it when a person writes a book that person becomes a celebrity me to ask an other question. Ben a son of God by the blood of Christ.

    • amos8

      Rob Bell is not so much the problem, but those who promote him, agree with him, defend him … and attack those who stand up for the Word of God.

      False teachings/false teachers warrant a lot of attention … see in Scripture….

  • Guest

    Ok, s

  • CynicalDrew

    Also, it doesn’t hurt that his latest book came out last Tuesday. I’m sure this will drive a few percentage of sales and put a couple dollars in his pocket. Enjoy your vacation, or new car, or second home, Rob! Hope its worth it!

  • Chris

    Ok, so I am probably going to be in
    the minority on this one, and may even get some angry responses, but I’m going
    to comment anyway. I am not a huge Bell
    fan. I’m really not. I think there are some significant
    theological questions in what I have heard come from him. And, full disclosure, I did not listen to the
    whole audio file. But, pertaining to the
    issue of gay marriage . . . Yes, living
    a homosexual lifestyle is sin, as we see in Scripture. But there are lots of sins in Scripture that
    are not illegal in our secular government.
    America is not a theocracy. Never
    has been. Likely never will be. So, while I do not condone the homosexual lifestyle,
    Consitutionally speaking, I see no reason why gay people shouldn’t be able to
    get married. I do view it as a civil
    rights issue. This is America, and
    again, it’s not a theocracy. It saddens
    me SO much to see such strong rhetoric from the “christian” community on
    something that means so little in the grand scheme of eternity. Think about this: If they are not allowed to get legally
    married, then they are still gay and need Jesus. If they are allowed to get legally married,
    then they are still gay and need Jesus.
    Why do we care so much? All this
    argument does is tell the world (especially homosexuals) that Christians are
    against them. It forms barriers, and
    makes it extremely hard (if not impossible) for us to speak into their lives
    with the love of Christ. Stop fighting
    something political when it has no spiritual value, and potentially actually
    hurts our ability to minister to people.
    I just don’t get it. But hey, that’s
    just my two cents. Blessings!

    • arnold

      You have hit on the heart of the controversy. I do not see how any Christian can believe homosexuality is not sin, marriage or not. That is not the issue in America today. We are in a plural society that separates Church from State as to law and policy. The issue is how much can we Christians expect the state laws to reflect our religious values? Not far as the moral views of our citizens increasingly show. I believe homosexual marriage will be a horrible thing for people do more quickly accept anything that is legal to be moral. The Church’s teaching on the sin of homosexuality will be opposed in the public schools teaching of safe sex etc and the public square’s teaching of moral conduct. All of society’s teachings will be in direct opposition to the Church’s. That is never good and will lead multitudes into damnation. However, for the Christian’s view to prevail on this issue, it must be on a basis that is “non religious”. Not that long ago, my view that as a matter of public policy, marriage should be reserved to a man and a woman for the sake of the needs of the child was the majority view of our citizens. We lost that fight long ago, partly to we Christian’s failure to honor marriage, creating millions of homes with single parents. Soon single parent, then gay, adoption was accepted. Then sodomy laws were declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. Everything is poised for the Supreme Court to strike down any limitation on gay marriage unless the court find’s a compelling public interest in maintaining heterosexual marriage or kicks it out as a state’s right to decide. Again, I am not optimistic for a good out come. As our Country has continually acted toward fulfilling “equality” in every area of law, gay marriage is a logical (though perverted evil) next step. So the issue is not sin, homosexuality is. The issue is can the court find a non-religious reason to out law gay marriage. I do not think we have given them one.

      • Chris

        That is because there isn’t one. Gay marriage does not suddenly undermine my heterosexual marriage. I do agree that it is not what is best, at all. How
        could it be? It’s not God’s plan! But I am not really concerned about “America” and this issue. From the “America” (Constitution) standpoint, they should be allowed to have the same rights that heterosexual couples have – and they don’t. From a spiritual standpoint, I am way more focused on the people. It most certainly IS a sin issue. Living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin. That is clear. But it’s no different than any other sin out there in the eyes of God. Only we, humans, seem to treat it differently. But if God indeed views all sin the same, why do we behave differently? Let’s approach it like
        anything else: with love, understanding, and with a non-judgmental heart. Only God saves. Not us. We sure as heck can’t legislate a mass group of people into sincere Christianity. Whether they get legally married or not, let’s focus on them as God sees them: people who need a savior. People that Jesus died for. People that are no more vile a sinner than you or I. THEN, and only then, will we be able to hopefully enter a dialogue where we can show them Jesus. If that happens, then the situation will fix itself. But so far, we’re doing it wrong.

        • Matthew

          Thanks, Chris. I think you worded this more succinctly than I did. Absolutely! Making Mosaic law into national law does nothing to promote the Kingdom and distorts the redeeming message of Christ.

    • Bible Believer

      This does have a spiritual value though. God has created two major institutions in which we are called to learn in: 1.) The Church & 2.) Marriage. God also created Adam and his wife Eve, this was the way God intended to do it. By sitting back allowing this to become a civil rights issue we are as a nation saying that it is ok for us to completely go against God’s original design and command. By saying we shouldn’t take a stand against homosexual marriage (because it is breaking Gods command) then it is like we are saying it is ok for Christians to not take a stand against abortion and the mass genocide of babies, or evolution. Christians havent spoken up as much as they should and tthat is why the nation is the way that it is today. Much love in Christ, God Bless you brother.

      • JustinF

        Right on, Bible Believer! We, me included, have kept silent for too long!

      • Chris

        I think you are confusing the heart of man with the civil laws of a secular nation. You can vote for whatever you want, and you should absolutely vote as you feel led to vote. But tell me this: Would Jesus be spending his time
        picketing this and vocally thrashing the idea and talking down to homosexuals? Or would he spend his time at the dinner table with these people? Show me ONCE in Scripture where Jesus attempted to change anything about the secular government when he walked the earth. Just once.
        That is the key. Jesus doesn’t really care about earthly kingdoms. He cares about the hearts of men. Period. There is absolutely nothing else that can top that. Of all of the commandments in Scripture, I am pretty sure “love your neighbor” and “make disciples” outweigh any instruction to “be overly vocal about political matters pertaining to a secular nationalist government.” In fact, I am pretty sure that last one isn’t in there. Please forgive my tone if it comes across as overly sarcastic – it is hard to sometimes convey appropriate tone with written comments. That said, I do continue to find myself flabbergasted.
        The bottom line is that fighting against this civil rights issue (again, in a secular political arena) absolutely hinders our ability to reach this community for Jesus. In fact, in most cases (look at any survey/study, including Barna) it actually damages the reputation of Christians and turns people away from Christ! And you think we should be more vocal about it? How much worse would that get! Some people approach this in a very militant way – again, completely contrary to how Christ operated. Again, the bottom line is that God looks at the heart – not the national civil law. If he did, America would have been burned up long ago. Whether or not gay couples are legally allowed to have hospital visitation (Because this is, after all, what this is all about. The horror!), they are still gay, and still need Jesus. Let’s focus on that.

        • Dave Ekstrom

          Chris, I think I understand you. As a Baptist I am big on separation of church and state. I reject Christian Americanism. But your argument is flawed for this reason. You say marriage is a civil right. It is not. If it were a right, then licenses would not need to be issued. The fact is a secular state has the right to require moral conduct of its citizens if such conduct affects the society at large. The family is the basic unit of any society. It is the very best place to raise children. Even if I were an atheist, I would oppose gay marriage. It was Bill Clinton who signed the Defense of Marriage Act. And he did so based on research done by a liberal sociologist at the University of Chicago. If they want to live together, I really don’t think that’s my business. I don’t think anybody, gay or straight, should be parading down the streets bragging on how they have sex. I oppose gay marriage. I oppose gay couples adopting children. These things could be justified on purely secular grounds and should be outlawed. No culture, even those that see nothing wrong with homosexuality, has ever adopted gay marriage. We are jumping head long into a huge social experiment and will not know until its too late whether or not it was a good idea. And by then, like the frog in the kettle, we may have redefined normal down so far that we don’t see any other way.

        • $27626823

          Jesus upset the money market tables at the temple, that was quite a example..that jumps up.

        • $27626823

          Like I said, the length at which you guys go to try to see this issue on a positive light is incredible.

    • Matthew

      In Canada, gay marriage is a civil reality. Gays get married here all the time. No serious political party has a platform against it. Churches are not persecuted for not performing gay weddings. In my mind, gay marriage will likely always be a category of civil reality, civil law here in Canada. As bizarre as it is, it will continue to be viewed by secular societies as a civil rights issue and not for what it is: a moral issue. The same as abortion is viewed as a personal rights issue and not for what it is: a moral issue. Christians will have to find a way to navigate all these murky waters, and many others, while living and proclaiming the gospel. It’s that simple in mind.

    • RAMJR

      God created marriage, a covenant between three parties. Man, woman and God. It is binding in commitment. But we live in a world set on taking God out, and one of those ways is to destroy the sanctity of marriage, the covenant God gave to us, and a man and his wife give to each other. It is not to the standards God put in place. first, in sexual purity in the covenant the woman proved her standing with God, in shedding blood. The standing reason for a ‘best man’ use to be in waiting for the groom to verbally acknowledge his wifes fidelity, with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ through the door to his best man. If the woman was NOT pure in her covenant, the option of the marriage dissolved, and her more than likely stoned to death in her infidelity trying to be hidden (it is why when Joseph stood up for Mary in her conception, that was outside the normal response in standing with God, and why an angel had to go to Joseph to share Mary was telling the truth. It is also why they had to leave. No one else would believe what happened).
      Jesus said, “My people are destroyed in their lack of knowledge.” The knowledge only reading the Bible gives to us. Not clever cuts and pastes, or taking it out of content or context. Anyone can be that clever…or, in truth, actually reading the Bible, and knowing when others are trying to be clever, and take the Word of God into immoral standing, to justify immorality over God. Almost every apostles wrote man will try and do just that, if we let them.
      Rob Bell is such a man, and is apostate in value. God help him in his misleading the Children of God. The Bible is clear about that judgment too!

    • least of these

      I do share your view on the constitutional rights of each individual, however, bell is not a politician, he is a “pastor” and his pronouncements present his position as such (2) he is speak of love which not a matter of constitution or governance , he talking about marriage a God ordained and stipulated institution. Marriage is God brain child, and he as set rules, laws, and governance over how it should be practice and it definitely does not include same sex marriage whether we like it or not…in spite of the system of governance

    • Steve

      In response to this, my issue is not with “gay” people themselves. I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, but we must learn to love people. My issue is with the gay agenda. If allowed to be married, will it stop there? No! The constant push to not only acceptance, but approval is where I have the problem. Ultimately we have to get to the issue of do we change what the Bible says sin is. And if I truly love my neighbor, I have to stand by the Biblical concepts of sin or I will love them straight out of the Kingdom.

  • clifford

    If Rob Bell is a true messenger of God, he then should know that apologising on your death bed will not influence people either, judgement awaits him hereafter, lm so surprised that many like him see this homosexual mistake at the end of their lives when they can’t change much, change your ways man, better change now when you still can

    • Matthew

      Ummmm… Have you heard the Gospel?

  • Pastor Ron

    When Bell says “the ship has sailed” he is actually making a profound statement of his value system. To acquiesce to the prevailing cultural morals is to deny your calling to speak to that culture. How many issues can we simply throw our hands up in the air over and surrender God’s call for righteousness in every nation? I do not believe we are responsible to change an immoral culture, but we are expected to have the integrity and courage to lovingly speak the truth, whatever the cost to us personally. Even our popularity!

  • livingmartyrs

    I’m typing this from a nation where this ship has most definitely sailed. And, guess what? God is still God. Jesus is still Jesus. And grace is still grace. The church here is having to grow up and start to wrestle with just how much we’ve been preaching is simple prejudice. And that’s a good thing!

    Bell’s point is to lead with what we love, rather than keep protesting the church’s two-or-three pet sins. People who are trying to say “hate the sin but love the sinner” are splitting hairs when it concerns something that’s so connected to identity. Do you really want to be the barrier to people meeting Christ? Have you not read Jesus’ words about that?

    The level of anger and vitriol poured out here at a brother in Christ, who is calling for Christ’s love to be extended to the outsiders is shocking!

    It strikes me that a number of people here demanding that other commenters “read their Bible” should humbly start examining the trend of Jesus to reach the disenfranchised and so-called unclean of his time, and the way in which he did it. After all he’s “the way”, and “the life”, not just “the truth”. If Rob Bell’s words are striking this kind of a reactionary chord, perhaps that in itself is an indication that he’s far more of a prophet than most here want to accept.

    • taryn

      good words.

    • amos8

      Do you believe the Bible teaches that homosexual behavior is sin?

      Do you believe that sin is harmful, harmful to the individual, to others, and to the individual’s relationship with God?

      If so, then (whether you believe it is a sin or not) can you not understand why people are passionate about warning others about sin (whether or not it is in your category of a “pet sin”)?

      “Bell’s point is to lead with what we love, rather than keep protesting the church’s two-or-three pet sins. People who are trying to say “hate the sin but love the sinner” are
      splitting hairs when it concerns something that’s so connected to

      Are you implying that you know that Bell is loving … AND that others are not loving? Wouldn’t that be sin on their part? How do you know they are not loving?

      Can we love someone by not telling them the truth?

      Could it be that it is supremely loving to warn others about their sin? (Jas 5:19-20; Prov 24:11-12; Gal 6:1) Especially if it will provide an opportunity for salvation, forgiveness, repentance, etc?

      Then why are so many judging and condemning Christians for doing so? Why is this now considered wrong, if not “hateful”?

      If we are to “lead with love” do we not also need to truth in order to love? (1 Cor 13:6; Eph 4:15; 3 Jn 4)

      Could it be that it is supremely unloving to not tell the truth or to minimize sin and its consequences? [“You will not surely die…”] (Even if we are well intended)

      “Do you really want to be the barrier to people meeting Christ? Have you not read Jesus’ words about that?”

      What is that barrier, specifically, that you refer to?

      If forgiveness is the solution–if not our greatest need–then is it NOT a “barrier to meeting Christ” to fail to mention their sin?

      If I am not aware of my sin then I see no need for forgiveness! With this understanding, then is it not the person who fails to call sin “sin” the “barrier to meeting Christ”!?

      Then should we not warn Rob Bell (and others) about this dire situation?

      Have YOU read Jesus’ Word about that? Are we not told that–when we follow the truth of the Word–then to some we will be the smell of death, and to others the fragrance of life?

      Doesn’t it make sense that so many hate Christians? They are the “smell of death” for shining light. Our hearts are such that we hate the light of the truth … because “our deeds are evil” and we want to remain there.

      “It strikes me that a number of people here demanding that other
      commenters “read their Bible” should humbly start examining the trend of
      Jesus to reach the disenfranchised and so-called unclean of his time,
      and the way in which he did it.”

      “Trend”? What does that mean? Who is the “disenfranchised”? Didn’t Jesus come to seek and save what those that are lost? Did He not warn us to NOT work for food that spoils, but for food that lasts?

      The trend that I see is more and more people emphasizing the temporary at the expense of the eternal (exchanging the gospel of salvation for a “social gospel”), all with the greatest of consequences.

      “If Rob Bell’s words are striking this kind of a reactionary chord,
      perhaps that in itself is an indication that he’s far more of a prophet
      than most here want to accept.”

      … or could it be that he is a false prophet with a “different gospel” (Gal 1:6-9)? How do you know for sure if he is a “true” or “false” prophet? By the reaction that he receives, or by measuring his words against the Word? If we do so, then we must REJECT him (and all others) based on going against Scripture.

      • livingmartyrs

        Christians’ close-minded dismissiveness is enough of a reason why so many hate Christians. (It’s also a pretty good reason why a number of Christians don’t want to self-identify as such.)

        Are you implying that you know Rob Bell is NOT loving, and that everyone speaking from the posture that “homosexuality is disgusting” IS loving?

        I’m not going to go through your comment point for point. If it’s not significant to you that Jesus spent time with lepers, Samaritans and tax collectors, then you won’t appreciate anything else I have to say.

        • amos8

          I’m not sure why you replied the way you did. These are VERY important questions … but they also explain why and where others are coming from.

          Yet, instead, they are frequently and quickly dismissed. It seems others would prefer to “put them into a box” (as “Pharisees;” “hateful,” “uptight Christians,” “judgmental,” etc) so that they don’t have to deal with the very real and difficult conundrum at hand. And, yes, they are often judged as “close-minded dismissiveness” … often by those who not only claim to be the “open-minded” ones, but who also declare it is wrong to judge.

          Are some “Christians” “close-minded” and “dismissive” (in their words and attitudes)? Of course, but should we then “dismiss” or be dismissive of all self-proclaiming Christians? Should we judge in such broad terms?

          I see that you don’t want to answer those questions (but I would ask that you do so for yourself, at a minimum, so that you at least see where it takes you) yet I will take a poke at your question.

          There are different ways to determine love. Perhaps RB is loving in that he is truly wanting to help, but I don’t know one way or another. He could be, or he could be intentionally not (the same is true with you, and me, and Alex, and …). All that to say, I don’t know his motives.

          The other way is to see if someone’s actions are truly helpful and biblical and based on truth. He or she may be well intended, but their actions cannot be deemed loving if it is harmful, anti-Scripture, not based on truth (a clear and extreme example might be a cult leader who truly believes he or she has he truth, but is misleading people through their overly strict, or overly lenient ideology and practice). Parents are often well intended (they truly want the best for their kids) but the may “parent” in harmful ways (thinking it is good … like being overly strict or lenient).

          Also, I don’t know the motives of the others, but they could be “in the right” but not handling it in a loving way, and that is on them. But that does not mean the truth is still not the truth, nor does it give anyone the popular excuse of something like, “Well, Christians are so ______, so I don’t want to be a Christian.” While this is common (by both sides) it does not excuse either one, yet many use it as a justification to not come to the truth. If our parents were hypocritical “Christians” (or Muslims; or Astronauts; or) then we may be less motivated to be a Christian, but ultimately we are still responsible for seeking the truth … despite how others handle it. I say all this because this is a common, yet deadly justification.

          Is all sin disgusting? I would say so, in one way or another and to one degree or another.

          “If it’s not significant to you that Jesus spent time with lepers,
          Samaritans and tax collectors, then you won’t appreciate anything else I
          have to say.”

          I’m not sure why you said this … and in this way … and asserted something that isn’t true of me.

          Is it not significant that Jesus spent time with many different kinds of people?

          Was He more concerned about their temporary circumstances or their eternal circumstances? Which one should we be far more concerned about?

          If we look at the book of Acts, we see the disciples/apostles “go out” and “preach” and “teach” and “proclaim” the good news of salvation. And, as a result, they “preached” and taught sin, repentance, and forgiveness. I count over 80 times in just the first two thirds of the book that they taught the Word and preached the gospel. But not once, not one single time did they attempt to “change society” or change cities or the government.

          In fact, when a large portion of one particular society/city was changed (actually, it was the HEARTS of many that were changed) then they rest of the city hated them and wanted to kill them. This is what “Christianity” does. It never wins over a city or society. It never will. We are repeatedly promised by Jesus Himself that we will be hated because of the Word and because of Him.

          Yet, and this is very important, the current “trend” today is, “If we just show them love then the will want to follow Jesus.” This notion goes against everything in Scripture.

          I never get a good response when I point this out because people tend to be locked into their preconceived notions and strongly resist conforming to the truth of the Word.

          Again, it is our nature to resist and hate truth-especially God’s Word–so it is easy to say something along the lines that lowers the standards, that _____ and ______ and _____ are now okay, kind of like what RB is doing.

          I get it if you don’t want to answer the questions, and I get it if you don’t want to go “on record” by answering them here, but I believe you are doing your self and the body a great disservice.

          How well can we truly love if we do attempt to love apart from the truth?

          • Matthew

            Or how can we love at all, unless it’s God working through us? We are loved first and are therefore able to love. I don’t think anyone here is denying that homosexuality is a sin, that it misses the mark for what God would expect of us. It’s when you set this sin apart as more condemning than other sins, or call it out as a deal-breaker sin, that we are distorting the truth. Isn’t God in charge of the “deal”?

            This is what some folks are meaning when they use the term “pet sins”. The way that most Christians address these sins can be so polarizing and damaging, particularly when so much of a person’s identity can be wrapped up in their sexuality. Their entire worth as a person.

            We can approach this better! Not by lying and saying some sins are okay and others are not, but by saying all sins lead us to death, but Christ leads us into life! We don’t need to point out specific sins in a person’s life to make sure they know that they are actually sinning. Do you not trust that people have an innate sense of how wretched they actually are? Can’t we trust that God will work on these things in a person’s life as they come to trust and believe in Him? It only takes one sin to make us need a savior, and that occurred a long time ago…

            We all sin in ways we are not even aware of. Can a child come to God for forgiveness because he hit his younger brother and took his toy away in the knowledge that he did the wrong thing and is in need of salvation? Can he come to God while not realizing how truly selfish he actually is, how it is a pattern and even an addiction in his heart, that he sins in more way than he will ever know? Absolutely! Will God gently work in him through the spirit in ways that make him less selfish and more and more generous over time? Absolutely! Will he mess up and have times where he is selfish again, only to be reminded that God has already given him everything he needs? Absolutely!

            Now, before he goes to God for salvation, did he need to have his exact pattern of sin explained at length to him by someone who considers themselves to be a pretty good sin inspector, so that he knows all the things he needs to work on changing, or is the one sin and understanding a need for salvation enough for God to begin a work in his life? I surely hope it is the latter. And I believe that it is sufficient to present the Gospel to anyone in this way, without setting one particular brand of sinner, or pattern of sin apart from the rest. Isn’t all sin really just a form of idolatry?

            I mean, the Good News really is awesome, right? Shouldn’t that be what we come preaching, what we are demonstrating in our lives, what we are all about?

          • livingmartyrs

            There are two reasons why I responded the way I did. I saw your comment below stating that you were pulling out of the conversation because there is no longer merit to discussing it with me. (It was apparently mis-named at the time?) And it seemed to me like you were intentionally missing the point about Jesus engaging the marginalised/unclean.

            I’m sorry I misread you.

            The problem you are probing here is a significant one. You are highlighting the difference between motivation (interior) and perception (exterior). The church says we love people in a certain way, but the world says “That does not feel like love, so we reject it.” Whose definition wins? If we are called to humility, we must give the tie to outsiders. Thus we must work harder to ensure that our love is pure and obvious — that it is not wrapped up in agenda, self-deceit, posturing, or a holier-than-thou approach. What some Christians call loving, outsiders may call imposing — just like what other Christians call loving some outsiders may call pandering (and oddly, those two can happen at the same time!).

            If we are really loving, how we are perceived matters, because it honours the people we say we love.

            This same interior/exterior flip happens between believers as well. This is why Rob Bell is being treated like a hero by some, and with great suspicion (or worse) by others. He is speaking to a type of motivation that resonates with a certain type of Christian, one that has been underplayed in recent decades, but one that is highly relevant in this current culture. Yet it is also one that is discordant with another type of Christian.

            I perceive that the assumption you’re making is that people who think differently than you don’t care about sin. I don’t know a so-called liberal who is like that. In fact, the so-called liberals I know take sin far more seriously than mere action. And anyway, I think in 2013, in North America, we’ve been leading with far too much sin and not nearly enough salvation. Leading with sin makes the church sound smug and arrogant (not least because it too often has been, and again, there’s a personal confession in there), and thus by default we do not gain a hearing. If we don’t have a hearing, who cares about the message we’re telling? (Literally.) And if people check out before we talk about grace, redemption, love and reconciliation, then all they hear from us is sin, and thus condemnation, and we’re off-point.

            Sin is a lot deeper than one issue. And it seems incredibly self-serving that the whole world knows our opinion on this single issue when it directly affects so few people. It’s relatively easy to marginalise a minority. But what would happen if our saturation soundbite was about pride, instead. The world would have a field day holding us to account on that, right? On balance, isn’t that closer to what the Bible is really all about? If we’re honest, isn’t pride behind all sin?

            Leading with love isn’t actually that controversial of an approach. Jesus incarnated love, and drew people to himself like a magnet (which he promises will continue, if we lift him up). Christians who are afraid of the world, who would rather not face its ickiness, may not have completely wrestled with how much God loves his creation. Christians are suppsed to be right in the think it, just not of it. And throwing stones from a safe distance at what we don’t like isn’t really all that different from human nature, is it?

            (It is fascinating to me that you concentrate on the potential divisiveness of our faith, not its power to reconcile, to bring peace and to extend harmony across enemy lines.)

            So then, if what we do does not feel like love to outsiders, and our efforts are not perceived to be in the direction of reconciliation and health, then no amount of pristine theology will be able to save us from the point we’ve missed. If people want to kill us, I submit, that’s generally not because we’re representing Jesus perfectly. In fact that line of thinking gives us a martyr complex, enabling all kinds of horror in God’s name.

            But then again, if we believe that we’ve represented Jesus perfectly, and people still really do want to kill us, then the Bible tells us not to be afraid of that end.

          • amos8

            Sorry for the delay…

            I think we are begging the question(s) here.

            What is love?

            Is it a sin?

            If so, is it not loving to warn others of their sin/destructive behavior?

            Is it not UNloving (and therefore exceedingly destructive) to NOT not warn about sin … let alone to teach that sin/destructive behavior is not sin/destructive?

            So, if homosexuality is a sin (which obviously we all don’t agree), and then someone (Rob Bell or McLaren or …) comes and declares it not to be a sin, to not be concerned about the consequences of sin … any sin, then how can we call that loving?

            Could we not argue that this would be “hateful”? (e.g. destructive, harmful, etc)

            Also, how can we accept the premise that Christians don’t lead with love? This over generalization makes it sound like Christians are all like that church in the midwest who goes around with signs saying “God hates ____” and protesting funerals and such. [Note: the “pastor” ran for political office as a Democrat … yet “conservatives” are judged, condemned and branded as being like this church.]

            So, this premise is misleading, at best … and VERY harmful to people and the discussion.

            How about the untold numbers of “Christians” or “Conservative Christians” who are diligently loving “gays” and “non-gays” and _____? Just because they are not self-promoting does not mean there are not many out there doing the right thing.

            Perhaps if you answered my questions (earlier, and now) then this whole thing would be a lot clearer.

            You said, “(It is fascinating to me that you concentrate on the potential
            divisiveness of our faith, not its power to reconcile, to bring peace
            and to extend harmony across enemy lines.)”

            How am I “concentrating” on the potential divisiveness of our faith? In fact, to TRULY reconcile one or both parties have to accurately own up to their failures or sin. Ironically, that is what we do … IN LOVE … when we confront others on their failings … so that they can be reconciled to God and others. Anything less is a weak, if not false “reconciliation”!!!

            Ambiguity and minimizing offenses NEVER brings TRUE reconciliation and peace. But clear and concise confession, repentance does (Prov 28:13).

            So, it is more than ironic that you firmly (and inaccurately) condemn me for what you seem to be defending. AND my stated principles are precisely what is needed to bring about what your stated goals are (and mine too).

          • livingmartyrs

            No *your* claim of irony is ironic — do you see where that takes us? It’s like a children’s rhyme about a mulberry bush.

            The bottom line here is identifying who determines the veracity and fullness of the reconciliation between God and man? You? Me? Or God?

            Likewise, who determines if (for example) Rob Bell’s name is in the book of life? You? Me? Or God?

            To push my point further, who is Jesus’ grace insufficient for? Which sin trumps grace in the life of a believer?

            You’re suspicious of Rob Bell’s motives, and suggest he may be misleading people for his own selfish ends. Okay, fine. You must be responsible to (but also for, and with!) your own convictions. But then, of course, your doubts and my beliefs, or my doubts and your beliefs don’t have much control over reality, do they?

            So then, let me draw your attention to this problematic passage (Luke 13:34-5) of Jesus Christ lamenting prophets and the messengers of God who were killed by Jerusalem — in fact it appears in the present tense, like this was an on-going thing. Were those prophets eliminated because their message was unpopular to the external, murderous world? No, apparently they were dispatched by the religiously self-righteous — Jerusalem was the Jewish HQ. (Of course, Jesus was doing some magnificent foreshadowing there, for the religiously self-righteous introduced him to his own grisly end, as well.) In fact, the Bible has an undercurrent of prophets and believers losing their lives at the hands of self-appointed “truth protectors”. It looks like Paul even got in on that gig too, back when he was called Saul.

            If that isn’t enough, we’ve also got this “live and let live” attitude specifically from Jesus himself in talking about the weeds and the wheat in Matthew 24-30. (There he goes again with this whole peace-loving, ultimate-sovereignty-of-God schtick!)

            And then check out Paul going off on a rant on how what’s-his-name and so-and-so weren’t the ones crucified for sin, and asking the rhetorical question “Is Christ divided?” (1 Corinthians 1:12-3)

            So now in 2013, we’ve all got access to the Bible — indeed a degree of accessibility that is far beyond the imagination of previous generations. How about we introduce people to the Jesus of the Bible, and reveal to people *all* the things it says about sin, including that it affects everyone, but also that its power has a conqueror who invites everyone miraculously into his righteousness? How about we showcase examples like Peter’s vision that radically changed gears on countless years of segregation and prejudice? And furthermore, how about we allow the Holy Spirit’s conviction to work in people (even, gasp!, in LGBT folk), just as he promised he would? I look at all of that, and I feel pretty good about contending for a reduction in micromanagement in all this stuff.

            It seems to me like there’s a large dose of the Golden Rule in there, a generous dollop of don’t judge to avoid being judged, one heaping scoop of easy yoke, and another of the light burden that Jesus said he’d share with us. You know, if we let him.

          • amos8

            Again … “I think we are begging the question(s) here.”

            I’m not sure why you can’t/won’t answer these questions?


            What is love?

            Is it a sin?

            If so, is it not loving to warn others of their sin/destructive behavior?

            Is it not UNloving (and therefore exceedingly destructive) to NOT not
            warn about sin … let alone to teach that sin/destructive behavior is
            not sin/destructive?

            So, if homosexuality is a sin (which obviously we all don’t agree),
            and then someone (Rob Bell or McLaren or …) comes and declares it not
            to be a sin, to not be concerned about the consequences of sin … any
            sin, then how can we call that loving?

            Could we not argue that this would be “hateful”? (e.g. destructive, harmful, etc)

            Also, how can we accept the premise that Christians don’t lead with
            love? This over generalization makes it sound like Christians are all
            like that church in the midwest who goes around with signs saying “God
            hates ____” and protesting funerals and such. [Note: the “pastor” ran
            for political office as a Democrat … yet “conservatives” are judged,
            condemned and branded as being like this church.]


            If you/me want to be “united” then that is great, but what are we united over? Can two people “walk together unless they are agreed to do so?” If we are not agreed upon what is true and not true, what is loving, and not loving, then what comes after than will be fruitless at best, harmful most likely.

            That is the “rub”! That is also why Christians get a bad name (some times deservedly so, of course). They know how vital truth is. They know this is the foundation for what ever is built on top of it. Yet it is exceedingly easy to come along and say, “Why are you fighting over ‘doctrine’? You’re being divisive! (In my non-judgmentalism) I, however, just want to love God and my neighbor … so I’m not so concerned about truth or what love is.” [Note: I’m not saying this specifically applies to you (you can speak to that if you like), I’m just saying I frequently see this as a common “judgment” and response that clearly does not make sense. If we want to love God/others then great, but let’s establish what love is first. It’s like going on a trip without knowing the destination … or perhaps even caring. And then when someone in the back seat expresses concern, they are condemned for doing so.]

            So, do you see how important it is to have some level of agreement of what truth and love are? If so, I’m not sure why you won’t answer these questions.

            As I said before ….

            “Perhaps if you answered my questions (earlier, and now) then this whole thing would be a lot clearer.”

            Again, you said and then I said …


            You said, “(It is fascinating to me that you concentrate on the potential
            divisiveness of our faith, not its power to reconcile, to bring peace
            and to extend harmony across enemy lines.)”

            How am I “concentrating” on the potential divisiveness of our faith?
            In fact, to TRULY reconcile one or both parties have to accurately own
            up to their failures or sin. Ironically, that is what we do … IN LOVE
            … when we confront others on their failings … so that they can be
            reconciled to God and others. Anything less is a weak, if not false

            Ambiguity and minimizing offenses NEVER brings TRUE reconciliation
            and peace. But clear and concise confession, repentance does (Prov

            So, it is more than ironic that you firmly (and inaccurately) condemn
            me for what you seem to be defending. AND my stated principles are
            precisely what is needed to bring about what your stated goals are (and
            mine too).


            [Not sure why you did not address your errant judgment of me … or my attempt to clarify. Yes, that too, is someone ironic in that we are talking about responsibility, confession, repentance … or the blurring or lack thereof.]

            These principles seem pretty simple to agree upon … even for a non-believer. You could find them in religious or non-religious books (except the God part). Not sure why you seem to resist this so strongly.


            So, are you saying RB is a Prophet? If so, I would disagree (no surprise).

            But I would agree (if I am understanding what you saying) that prophets are not popular. That I wholeheartedly agree with.

            However, do you not believe RB is popular? He is exceedingly popular. Anyone who sells millions of books, is on the NY Times best seller list, has made millions of dollars from these books could only be deemed popular. I’m sorry, but Prophets do not make profits … at least not that much of a prophet (this goes for others like Pat Robertson, Joel Osteen, Glenn Beck, etc). When was the last time biblical truth was popular?

            [BTW, Jesus was not popular … at least after He introduced truth. He WAS popular when His focus was on the temporal (feeding and healing), but whenever He taught an important truth (“I tell you the truth…”) then the masses deserted Him, including His own disciples (e.g. Jn 6), or the people tried to kill Him (Lk 4), or they pleaded for Him to leave. And, ultimately, only a hand full were still around at His death. So popularity and truth rarely, if ever, go hand in hand (Matt 7:12-13).]

            Also, one of the clear signs of a prophet is that they seek to “turn people away from their sins,” they make CLEAR, bold declarations of truth and judgment. Notice that postmoderns follow the opposing path of this, which RB is one of the leaders.

            And, other the other hand, in addition to teaching what is false, false prophets obscure the truth and appeal to our sinful natures and tell people what they want to hear. Again, this far more a picture of RB than not.

            “You’re suspicious of Rob Bell’s motives, and suggest he may be
            misleading people for his own selfish ends. Okay, fine. You must be
            responsible to (but also for, and with!) your own convictions.”

            Again, I don’t know how you get this from what I write. [Yes, more irony of misjudging me for judging … by will you own up this time?]

            I don’t know his motives. If I had to guess (and I even hesitate to ascribe good motives to anyone … simply because who knows that for sure), then I would guess he (and many like him) are well intended. I believe the first leaders/founders of the “emerging church” had a god goal of reaching a hard to reach group, but they falsely believed they had to compromise the teaching in order to do so.

            So, again, we find ourselves at a place where you will address this things that are abundantly clear, or will find some reason to circumvent them.

          • livingmartyrs

            Are you deliberately trying to miss the point? Will you own up to your own (meta)ironic speculations about *my* motivations? All I have from you in this conversation is your words (which I am trying to interpret as honestly as I can), just as all you have from me is mine (and I trust the same for you).

            So in this latest comment, while you acknowledge that you can’t determine Rob Bell’s motivations, you are still speculating that he is trying to pander to culture by compromising truth, instead of wondering if perhaps he’s humbly, honestly and earnestly unpacking the revelation that’s being given to him. (Again, you have the imperative and freedom to discern all of that for yourself.)

            You may have figured out that I’m not going to dance to your tune quite the way you want me to. So my answer to “Is it a sin?” is “Does it matter?”

            If homosexuality was the most horrific atrocity that human imagination could concoct, and it could be completely, thoroughly and absolutely eliminated from a person’s character, makeup, temptations and even their most fleeting thoughts, would that person then be righteous?

            Of course not!

            So then the church’s ironclad stance against this one “sin” is totally misguided. Fixing this one thing doesn’t actually fix anything. Except that people who think it’s disgusting would feel more comfortable sharing a pew with said person. (Which in itself is a reflection of fear and hostility in the church, not understanding and humility.)

            I’ve also given you an answer that I believe that sin is what is convicted by the Holy Spirit. That’s scriptural. You want a more on-the-nose answer than that, I’m sure. There are lots of examples of specific sins in the Bible, but the Bible is also pretty clear that sin is not action — it is much deeper, more pervasive and more comprehensive than that. (Revealed, for example, when Jesus said that we have to be more righteous than the Pharisees, who made it their full-time job.)

            And here is where the Bible’s definition of love comes in, where it talks about always trusting, always hoping, always persevering (at least in the NIV). A love that doesn’t insist on having its own way must at least be open to the possibility that a dissenting voice might be revealing something of importance.

            On the other hand, a “loving” message that chases away its audience is a clanging cymbal — it does not matter how well-intentioned its motivations. If we are not *perceived* to be loving, then perhaps we haven’t done our job to humbly be perceived correctly. (I say perhaps because I’m not sure how much more Jesus could have done to try to be perceived correctly in the way he lived, and he’s still ignored/despised. And yet I say with confidence and confession that how we Christians represent Christ continues to be woefully inadequate.)

            When it comes to discerning prophecy, I’m always looking for what is more humble and other-serving rather than more arrogant, and self-serving. Every time. That’s my marker, because I believe that was Jesus’ whole life message, even to death on a cross.

            Finally, you’re not suggesting that every legitimate prophet is not popular, are you? Because according to global statistics, Jesus Christ currently has the largest following of any prophet right now, so I’m not sure what you would do with that. I’m also not sure what you would do with numerous popular leaders who disagree with Rob Bell. Does this make everyone popular wrong?

            Or would you agree that there is no real correlation between popularity (or “success”) and truth. And might you agree with me if I say that our beliefs and alignments in no way prescribe reality. Rather we are all trying to determine what reality is. And even those efforts are tempered with the repeated promise that reality at God’s level is beyond our faculties.

            So we humans are *bound* to see things differently. Our reliance on faith, on grace and ultimately on the sovereignty of God makes up for immense differences. Chasms between expressions of faith, priorities of action, and even, dare I say, definitions of sin are all solved by intentional consecration to an abundantly transcendent yet invitationally relational God.

          • amos8

            “When it comes to discerning prophecy, I’m always looking for what is
            more humble and other-serving rather than more arrogant, and
            self-serving. Every time. That’s my marker, because I believe that was
            Jesus’ whole life message, even to death on a cross.”

            Okay! Now we are getting somewhere. The more specific the better. You brought up the criteria for judging a prophet. Now we have something to work with.

            I think the clear and self-evident that the criteria in the Bible for determining the veracity of a TRUE prophet is, well, the Bible. It is whether or not if his words are the truth, according to Scripture (Acts 17:11; Jn 17:17; 14:6; 2 Jn 7-11; Is 8:19-20). It is also self-evident (if we go on the Bible as our Standard) that a FALSE prophet will conflict with Scripture, they will “not speak according to this word”!

            “If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.”

            Would you agree or not with this standard?

            The Bible warns us a myriad of times about false prophets, so I hope we can agree that false prophets and false teachers are, and have always been a major problem. AND I hope you would agree that the Bible has pretty high standards for prophets. And I hope you agree that, as I have shown before, that one clear criteria for a false prophet is falsehood/clashing with Scripture.

            Can someone be a prophet and not speak the truth? Can someone be a prophet and conflict with and contradict Scripture?

            So, if we cannot agree on these simple things then our problems are far greater than I realized.

            Also, a mark of a false prophet is appearing good (2 Cor 11) and even doing things are are truly good (2 Thess 2; Gen 3:5-7), but this only helps to deceive. Of course, if people are looking for some good and some truth and not all good and all truth, then that is a big reason why they are deceived.

            So then, I would hope that we can conclude that truth and love are inseparable. Also, I would rather have a mean person tell me the truth than a well-intended kind person love me with lies, wouldn’t you?

            You said, “Are you deliberately trying to miss the point? Will you own up to your own (meta)ironic speculations about *my* motivations? All I have
            from you in this conversation is your words (which I am trying to
            interpret as honestly as I can), just as all you have from me is mine
            (and I trust the same for you).

            So in this latest comment, while you acknowledge that you can’t
            determine Rob Bell’s motivations, you are still speculating that he is
            trying to pander to culture by compromising truth, instead of wondering
            if perhaps he’s humbly, honestly and earnestly unpacking the revelation
            that’s being given to him. (Again, you have the imperative and freedom
            to discern all of that for yourself.)”

            Yes, irony, in that that is precisely what I was thinking about you … when you deliberately (and admittedly so, I believe) not address a myriad of points/questions, points/questions that would clear this up.

            I would love to own up to my “speculations” IF you point them out to me. But are you saying you will not? Also, the difference here is that I do not have a stated standard that it is wrong to judge. I believe that we should judge … if we do so with the right standard, do it accurately, do it in love while seeking the truth and are open to correction. But more and more people seem to believe it is wrong to judge … but then have no problem judging. If that is you, then that is one thing. My points to you are that you are frequently MIS judging me … and will not admit it.

            That is a very common pattern. That is why liberalism gets worse and worse … (I’m not saying you are, you can answer for yourself) it/(they) often have this standard of do not judge … then they judge (often inaccurately), and when called on this it/they will (ironically) frequently blame others and not take responsibility. Like I said before, taking responsibility is THE key to life, relationships, love, and the true gospel. Liberalism’s key tenet is blurring or minimizing personal responsibility (I would hope you would agree), often in an over reaction to real or perceived exaggerated responsibilities by “legalists” (some times this most definitely happens, some times it is merely perceived, and other times a person to blame is “needed”).

            I think it obvious that I would conclude that someone like RB blurs, minimizes, if not avoids personal responsibility (especially for eternal matters, and in this particular sin).

            Also, your criteria for “sin” is one way, but it is also very subjective and can be feelings-based (some people harden their heart about such sins, ironically, in regards to sexual sins, especially homosexuality … Rom 1:21-32).

            Do we not need an objective standard for what is sin, love, truth, God, the gospel, etc? Feelings are not wrong, but they are often misleading, especially in the context of a deceitful, sinful heart (Jer 17:9). But this, too, is where liberalism clashes with “conservatives.” An emphasis on subjectivity verses objectivity. Which way is far easier to be deceived? Especially given the nature of our hearts?

            You said, “Finally, you’re not suggesting that every legitimate prophet is not
            popular, are you? Because according to global statistics, Jesus Christ
            currently has the largest following of any prophet right now, so I’m not
            sure what you would do with that. I’m also not sure what you would do
            with numerous popular leaders who disagree with Rob Bell. Does this make everyone popular wrong?”

            Can you name a legitimate prophet that was popular? I am open to this, but I don’t know of any. And, by the way, popularity that endures … at least for a while? Jesus, the real Jesus, is NOT popular. For example, many people have Bibles (it is, statistically the most popular book) but people do not read them, or know what it says. Neither do people know the truth or believe in the true Jesus. What better ploy than to pervert the truth about Jesus and get people to believe in distorted ideas about Jesus! How many cults, false religions, etc? Matt 7:13-14 is always clear. Teachers are not popular because they teach the truth. They are popular for other reasons. Like I said, few were following Jesus WHEN He taught them the truth.

            I have pointed out several things, but the pattern seems to be that you blow right by them, do not address them, even if you know they are right, or at least you cannot answer them. For a lot of people that would give them pause, they would rethink their presumptions, but I’m not seeing this (perhaps you are, but I’m not seeing in the fruit … so correct me where I am wrong). But, again, let me reiterate this pattern: I make several points and you ignore or circumvent them. What does that tell you about your beliefs and how you handle disagreements?

            You mentioned some real aspects of love but curiously did not point to the truth part (perhaps you assumed this, but I don’t know that for sure, given our conversations). How much is truth required in love? I believe 100%, especially given who Jesus is and what His Word says. What say you? And how do we determine truth, is it not according to the Word (Jn 17:17). Jesus said that ALL who are on the side of truth listen to Him. So how can we present untruth and be loving or like Jesus or point people to Jesus?

            These are questions that you probably will not answer, or cannot answer (and stay where you are). Will you prove me to be a “prophet”? I hope not!

          • RAMJR

            The hardest part for a Christian to face, is the reflection in a mirror. In my own life, I have violated the standing for which God created sex. In only after the marriage, which is a binding covenant to a man and woman for life and to God in that standing. Outside of that, and action out even thought, is sexual sin outside what God gave it for us to honor Him. There is a reason God calls for a consummation of marriage, in creating the living covenant of that marriage. To instruct, to teach, to build, protect and expand Gods children. That does not happen, in any mean or form, outside that content God created sex for.
            You can easily violate that sin, and may even feel good doing it…but Jesus warns us our thoughts and feelings are outside what God warns us.
            Jesus said, “My children are DESTROYED from their lack of knowledge”, a clear warning the nature of man will use any means, even through false prophets and leadership, taking His word out of content and context, and taking the FACTS God gives us, through the mistakes of others shared in the Bible, and what they tried to do to compromise it, until their HEARTS (not words) convicted them of the truth, not agenda, feelings and compromise.
            Jesus never said, ‘well, if you wanna stop sinning, it would be better for you’…He clearly said, actually commanded, “Go and sin no more.”
            I personally love the story given of Jesus at the woman at the well. First off, in that time-line, women went early to get water, and they went together. This woman did neither, and for a reason. First she was considered a dog, a Samaritan was looked upon as the lowest, by Jews. And she violated, many times over sexual immorality…but Jesus still spoke to her. In fact, He asked her for help, which confused her so much she felt she had to point out she was a Samaritan, but also had no way to get him water. The opening Jesus was looking for to really talk to her about what He was, and why He was talking to her. We even see this confused the apostles, who went to the market for their lunch. They had been rebuked (set straight in truth and lies) by Jesus so many times, they were learning just to watch. then Jesus told her about a water He could give her that would have her thirst no more. Clearly what woman wouldn’t want water they no longer had to spend hours and hard work getting to for living daily. Jesus then lowers the boom. He can see her heart. Nothing is hidden, so when He tells her to go get her husband, and then He will share with her…she tries to hide her truth, but Jesus astounds her in sharing what He knows, not by her words, but by her heart. He convicts her, something He even hasn’t done with His own apostles. We can see that, for when she goes running to tell the men she was sleeping with what this ‘man’ knows, they sheepishly come up to Him, to share they went shopping for food!
            Jesus makes a way for ALL SIN to be confronted and convicted. And time and time again, sexual sin is called, not to confront, but to RUN FROM! In other words REPENT! TURN AWAY FROM! NOT BE A PART OF! If a pastor is saying that God created sin, he is clearly LYING. If a pastor says that God created sex, for every avenue of sexual desire and nature…once again, and clearly in the Bible, that would be a LIE!
            Anything I write, makes no difference to Jesus, the Judge of all one day. He will clearly see through to our hearts, not our words. And their is also clear warning to false prophets and religious leaders. Even pointing out God will clearly tell many, “Depart from Me, I never knew you.” These were clergy, that prayed, fasted, spoke from pulpits, healed…and yet ARE POSERS! They don’t teach the gospel, they strive for personal opinion than Gods clearly given Word for us to follow.
            I also caution, as Jesus did, dogs eat their own vomit, pigs can be cleaned…but will jump right back into the mud…and presenting pearls, to pigs, is a waste of time and energy, and not worth debate. a mans own heart, is even hidden from himself, in lack of knowledge. God Bless.

          • amos8

            I agree, there are many pearls/pigs situations on this site.

            At first the attempt is to reason with anyone who wants to reason, but there is also bringing clarity for any others who are reading.

            So many false teachers and their defenders/supporters go unchallenged. Some, including this person (at least on another article/same site), attempt to shout down any who would dare confront and expose a false teacher.

            Sadly, this has clearly turned into a Matt 7:6 scenario … if it wasn’t all along.

          • RAMJR

            many messages of warning for us not to get misguided and confused…but going to sites like these, many times wanting to communicate with fellow Christians, the wolves come out. To confuse, to create division, to spread perversity and ignorance.
            2 Peter is a book that addresses this a lot, same as most, if not all the books do address. Some a little and some a lot.
            God will use, both the good and bad in this world, for the good He is bringing. We may not understand it, or even blame Him for the bad things, when it was our sinful nature that brought the division, disease, perversity and death.
            the most good we can do, is strengthen the truth of God, through reading and taking the time to understand the examples and warnings we truly have gotten all along, just as the children of Israel were lead by a cloud during the day, and a pillar of fire at night, it became normal and no big deal, just as the Bible sits on most bookshelves in dust, spider webs and pages sticking together.
            I say that, because I am guilty of that. Looking in a mirror is the first step to finding who we are. All our faults, failures, sins, struggles and ignorance in WHOLE TRUTH, which gives no wiggle room of compromise, but conviction of our hearts and in repentance. God Bless.

            Proverbs 6:12-19:
            What are worthless and wicked people
            like? They are constant liars, signaling their deceit with a wink of the
            eye, a nudge of the foot, or the wiggle of fingers.

            Their perverted hearts plot evil, and they constantly stir up trouble.

            But they will be destroyed suddenly, broken in an instant beyond all hope of healing.

            There are six things the LORD hates…no, seven things he detests: haughty eyes,
            lying tongue, hands that kill the innocent, a heart that plots evil,
            feet that race to do wrong, a false witness who pours out lies, a person
            who sows discord in a family.

          • amos8

            Contending for the faith is not always pretty … or fun. And while it may not “work” NOW … there is always good fruit in the end.

            If the church, as a whole, discerned more, defending the faith more, “exposed” false teachers then we would have fewer of the messes.

          • livingmartyrs

            The last comment I will make on this post is that feeling and thinking are both ways that we get deceived. The Bible tells us that God’s thoughts are substantially higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9) so our brains are not fully trustworthy from God’s eye-view.

            It’s sadly humorous when people say emotionalism will steer people astray, and by extrapolation seem to be declaring intellectualism the better alternative.

            Jesus got under the Pharisees’ skin by continually bringing up how much truth they knew, and yet how wrong they were. And when they claimed to see he indicated that was the very reason they were blind. (John 9:41) This has convicted me thoroughly for my intellectual arrogance — something I’m reminded of every time I think my way is the only/best way. And I react strongly where I see that manifested in leaders, especially church leaders who should, in my estimation, be charting a better course. And so that explains my participation in these comments.

            If people are blindly about to fall into the same pit that I have, in between elements of my *own* pride and egocentrism, perhaps it’s also humble and loving for me to point that out.

            I submit this all to everyone else’s discernment.

          • mkdb

            livingmarytyrs, you asked me if you could let me know how I come across. please allow me the favor in return. I won’t evaluate all that you have said and point out where I think you are wrong (or right), but i would merely ask that you evaluate your own self based on your own criteria. I think you would learn a lot. Also, perhaps a double blessing might be to ask someone else to evaluate these same words/tone against your own criteria and then humbly accept what they say. You don’t have to publicly acknowledge your shortcomings but i believe if you did it would be even more powerful. Not just for yourself but for everyone else.

          • livingmartyrs

            Shoot, I knew I shouldn’t have said the last comment was my last.

            But I feel it is important enough to “go back on my word” to say this: thank you mkdb for both holding me to account, *and* not re-treading this whole discussion. :-)

            For what it’s worth, when I have re-read my words the following day, I have been impressed with my restraint. I will continue to ponder all of this, and will work even harder to not sin in my anger in the future.

    • rtp000

      A true prophet never strays from the word of God because he has a close, personal relationship with God! Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, but contradicting His words and position are not His way! The problem is that the homosexual community won a major victory when they got the word “intolerance” equated with the word “hatred”. As a father I love my daughters and do whatever I can to nurture them, but I am intolerant towards inappropriate words and actions that they do as children so that they can be corrected and learn to live correctly. Same goes for the church. We can love all sinners and through love be intolerant towards their sins.

      What Rob Bell does is surrender to the world, not the Holy Spirit. He preaches to pricked ears, and not to the spirit. Love can conquer all, but only when we truly love others and we are unafraid to live and speak the truth. The ship may have sailed for
      Rob Bell, but his spiritual authority is removed and he does not speak for the Body of Christ! To refer to Rob Bell as anything other than a false prophet is the lie!

      • livingmartyrs

        Thanks for engaging this, rtp000. I want to go on a short exploration of the imagination with you.

        Let’s imagine for a moment that your daughters rejected your teaching on language, and let’s say their speech became peppered with four-lettered words. Would it be commendable in your opinion if the church said to them “You are not fit to live with us, to share life with us, and thus to encounter the real gift of salvation until you clean up your filthy language and learn to live correctly!”?

        That might be an over-reach of intolerance, right?

        But if I was someone who thought that your daughters’ language was a good enough reason to disassociate myself with them, that might really appeal to *my* pricked ears, might it not? (Oh God, give me the words to repent — I’ve tried to pick up on such a trivial issue on purpose, and I’ve *still* been “that guy”!)

        And then let’s imagine that along comes an unconventional voice that says we should love these dear children for who they are first and foremost because that is our God-given responsibility — by the essence of their humanity they bear the image of God. Love is not to give them a list of reasons why their language is a problem because of the church’s discomfort. Rather love means to reveal Jesus to them, and set an expectation within them that the Holy Spirit works to convict sin and enables them to live correctly and in harmony. This is a change, by the way, that partly necessitates the church making a new space for them while they’re in transition — a process that doesn’t end while they’re alive.

        Then this voice goes on to say we should give those people the mandate to deal with that dynamic revelation how they see fit. And the trusting part of love is then to walk that journey with them, asking honest, probing, humble questions about how the Holy Spirit is at work, rather than doubting it’s happening because it’s not quite adding up to expectations.

        As the parent of daughters who have been soundly and repeatedly rejected by the church, you might weep with joy over these life-giving words. You might think there is some light and hope in the church’s message after all. You might be drawn to worship such a loving, inviting, transcendent Christ who imparts his righteousness on everyone willing to believe in him, whatever their issues, hang-ups or behaviours. You might experience an unprecedented passion — a fervour and a zeal that you’ve never experienced before! It’s not too much of a stretch to imagine that you might even be exceedingly grateful that the unconventional voice is being heard by so many!

        But if I was sufficiently convinced that your daughters’ filthy language is enough of a reason to never welcome them into fellowship with me, and I believed I had sound biblical reasoning to think so (there are verses that could be used that way, after all), then I might think that unconventional voice is seriously off-base, might I not? Indeed, I would probably be willing to use the strongest language and the most public avenue available to declare it so.

  • Roy

    Another move toward Sodom, sound familiar? Bell is a heretic and should be kept out of any serious discussion. Please don’t subject readers to his infidelity to the Word of God!

  • Daniel

    In this modern age with social media and technology moving as fast as light, thousands of messages are delivered from people who live by The Book and for those who make their own interpretation of The Word of God. We are living in an age and time where false prophets, teachers, evangelists, apostles, wolves in sheep’s clothing, etc. are within the very walls of the church. They are emerging as leaders with a powerful voice to influence the feeble-minded or those seeking self-approval or self-gratification.

    For those of us that stand firm in God’s Word and try to abide in all of His Word, we must pray without ceasing for our young people: toddlers, pre-teens, teens, college/young adult, etc. We must also pray for these ministers that have gained a ‘following’. That revelation knowledge is imparted to and through them from On High and their minds be reverted back to the essence of Biblical truth…not in compliance and complacency to the status quo, yielding to world views, relinquishing the ground conquered, or just surrendering to satan’s thinking.

    We have won because Jesus won it all. We know how the game ends. Our job is to ensure and make all the fans in this game believe and choose the winning side. And for those fans that have not made it to the game, invite them to it.

  • Dave

    It not just the young. I’m 58, happily married to my opposite-sex spouse. And I know Bell is one of the best things to happen to “Christianity” in a long, long time.

    • Guest

      Wow, thank you for your courage, Daniel!

    • GC1

      I would agree with you, Daniel. I’m also in the “older” category.

  • Paul

    The universe is 13.7 billion years old and this is what you people choose to get your panties in a twist over??? Get a grip.

    Thank God for the entertainment value of silly inbred Republican “Christians!”

    I just wonder how much better gay sex must be than breeder sex, if so many people are willing to go to Hell for it.

    I would be out sodomizing and loving my fellow man TONIGHT if I thought for a second it would preclude me from having to spend even one moment of eternity with the likes of dim-witted busybodies.

  • Markas Deshmukh

    Rob “Bell’s thinking is against the Biblical principles. Satan is playing through his mind. God has made Man and Women for the purpose. Thought of same sex marriage is against God’s plan. America is loosing God’s favour, These people must repent and ask God for forgivness. Markas Deshmukh. India

  • AVine

    Does Sodem and Gomarrah ring a bell? Rob Bell…wolf in sheep clothing. Not complicated.

  • Pastor Gary

    Poor guy has totally lost his mind

  • DDDikio

    Some preachers started well, but fell from grace along the way because they failed to take heed as they progressed. Judas was one of such. ‘By their fruit you shall know them’ says the bible. So if the fruit of Rob Bell now turns out to be corrupted, then we observe that a strange spirit has taken over. Christians should pray for his deliverance. Christians should also pray for America because it’s under a serious attack from Satan who wants to make Sodom & Gomorrah out of America. That is to prepare America for destruction. It’s pathetic to hear people like Obama & Hillary support gay marriage. It’s tantamount to taking a stand with the Devil against God.The bible recognizes marriage as that only between a man & a woman. God bless Boehner for identifying with God.

  • Terry Hilton

    It’s disgusting, all Christians should disfellowship him and publically rebuke him.

  • Taryn

    I appreciate your loving tone in this post, brian. Jesus asked as many questions (or more) as he made statements. I think one of the greatest problems plaguing The Church at large is that pastors aren’t taking the role of provocateur seriously enough. Jesus was the greatest provocateur…and being a preacher declaring truth doesn’t quite engage people’s hearts and minds as does posing the tough questions that make us work out our faith with fear and trembling. I think that God is using Rob Bell to show conservative evangelicalism gets ugly when we aren’t the answer-holders, but fellow sojourners seeking Jesus together who will spend an eternity with people not only like Bell and the LGBT community but many more whom we’ve degraded, preached at and slammed our entire ministries. Remembering that people who have the “problem” of moving toward classic liberalism are part of The Kingdom – women with wives, men with husbands, KJV only readers, fallen pastors who never really put their marriages back together but have a shiny candy coating, pretereists and dispensationalists….all part of the same kingdom. I think the comments on a post such as this show how unready we are to embrace God’s kingdom when it’s a kingdom of people not just like us. Do we tell tribal missionaries to go into jungles and tell men with 8 wives and 20 kids to leave 7 wives to be Godly and follow Jesus? Rob is acknowledging, in a city like San Francisco, that we are here to bring God’s kingdom to the culture where we are. That’s what Rob’s saying…he’s even willing to go as far as “even if the church in america hates me, I’m willing to be a kingdom bringer at any cost.” No one wants to be or do the things Dr. King Schultz did, unless your Django and you have a wife enslaved who needs to be rescued. The whole time I watched that movie I thought of the parallels of the lengths to which we’d go to do the greater good…bringing God’s kingdom.

    • livingmartyrs

      Thank God that he extended to us grace to a depth and breadth that we can only catch the merest glimpse of. So amazing! In this conversation, it’s so easy to miss that. I *so* needed that reminder. Thanks Taryn.

  • Dave Ekstrom

    Very good analysis of Bell. People pretend they’re being courageous for standing for same-sex marriage. They are, in fact, caving in to popular culture. Bell is not some counter-cultural prophet as he wants to see himself. He is a compromiser who has allowed this world to mold his thinking. I would love to accept same-sex marriage. I don’t hate anybody. But there’s one little problem–it’s called the Word of God. Bell these days is a preacher without a congregation and is desperately seeking an audience. He has made himself irrelevant by being unfaithful to his calling. Someone needs to tell him that job one of a preacher is getting the message straight, not coming up with clever ideas of his own. I feel sorry for him. I hope he comes home.

  • DrT

    What would you expect from. Him? He has lost sight of the word of God! He wild rather have to
    He worlds applause and the pats on the back rather than take a stand in affirmation to the Truth of the Word of God.

  • ricotuloy

    Hi bell…….you don’t twist the word of God in order to please people that are against the word of God…..Love of God leads to good life and future…..sometimes our love tolerate people to do something wrong as long as they are happy that’s not ;love…..

  • Nor’easter

    No the ship has not sailed its trapped in a place “where two seas meet”, bad place for any ship.

  • Heim

    Rob Bell is more ambiguous on his views than a politician. The fact is, who cares about what Rob bell says, believes, writes? It isn’t like he’s God. He’s doing his best to market himself and create hype. Most of these people only have a limited time in the spotlight of the media. He’s making himself clear as to whom he’s serving.

    • amos8

      … too many people care about and follow what Rob Bell says, believes, writes! He is very popular. He sells millions of books.

  • Shaun

    The paradigm shift needs to be towards a core of Christlike characteristics. Where is the Holy Spirit in the prayer to fall upon God’s people? This is not an era that people fear God, although they should. This is an era for real time apostle’s to proclaim the word of God. People need to be set free, redeemed, and experience an awakening. We are drowning in so many subtleties and falseness. God gave you authority by his son and through him to not only do great things but greater. In the middle of chaos and surrounded by the world, asked the Holy Spirit to fall and penetrate the impenetrable.

  • Andy Harper

    In the story of the adulterous woman, the crowd are called not to judge (ie bind, condemn), it is Jesus who makes the judgement . ‘go and sin no more . .’. The trouble with wanting to reach an all encompassing conclusion on these matters, whether liberal, evangelical or whatever, is that we bind and sometimes condemn. We should treat people with an ‘open hand’, as God does with us and our own brokenness. He waits until we are ready before He deals with us. And we should do the same, otherwise we raise barriers. Speak the truth in love says the word, which to me says if you are not demonstrating love don’t go beating people up with the truth! Binding in heaven and on earth also comes to mind, hard line liberal and evangelical standpoints will bind people from moving on! In marriage relationships couples are advised to stand together and view an issue rather than letting the issue stand between them. Let’s try and do that . .say I want to stand with you, express Christ’s acceptance, journey with you, as we look from time to time at this issue together – why are we afraid of doing that?

  • Joshua Benton

    such a sad message to hear. I loved Rob Belle – and still do. yet it is so sad to see a major voice in the American Church affirm something that is so against what God wants. and to think of the potential of the magnitude of his influence and how it will begin to shape the minds of the rising youths in the Church – this is indeed troubling news.

  • Matthew

    I think it should be noted that both in the quote above and in the audio, Rob Bell is VERY careful with his words. Has anyone considered that he’s not saying what some of you perceive him to be saying? He is for marriage. He is for fidelity. And he is for love. He very intentionally omits the word “between” when listing various relationships, and then he stresses the importance of affirming people where they are; as in not where they are going, or how well they are living up to God’s standards, but even in different patterns of sin, God will meet them there. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but I thought it was very interesting how he said what he said.

  • tspidey

    So what he thinks matters so much that you are going to lose sleep over it. This article is not based in serving the story but to take one sound bite and build a rant. I am tired of the nonsense. If you dont agree you dont agree you dont get to trash the man.

  • gus mkoni

    We are christians of the bible not people pleasers.You can be loved by the world and loose God.

  • John Amen

    Bell is possessed with an evil spirit and He needs deliverance.

  • Jesus follower

    GRACE, GRACE, and more GRACE

    My ways are not your ways , my thoughts are not your thoughts we are taught

    That goes for Rob Bells thoughts and ways and for all those are lead to sin in what ever form that’s takes

    God is perfect we are not so full circle GRACE

  • Sarah

    Wow, if you are concerned that young people will be influenced by one persons views, you’ve got bigger issues than Bell’s statements on same-sex marriage. I don’t fear any of my youth or young adults reading “liberal” books or engaging with conversations about issues that matter to them because I’ve helped the to learn to think for themselves and wrestle with Scripture. Now, it doesn’t matter what I or any other leader or pastor says – they engage in their own journey towards holiness through scripture and prayer. How about you worry more about discipleship – and training your youth to wrestle with Scripture – then you won’t have to run scared when some preacher somewhere says something you worry about!

  • ola

    The word of God is the standard not what we think or say and when we die our name will either be in the book of life or not.what the Word of God says is what i will do not what anybody says or the church accommodates.The bible is clear on homosexuality and remember in the days of Noah,God’s decision was not based on popular trend but his Word.The Word says abide in Christ and not in any pastor,The Word says study to show they self approved.If a Pastor decides to preach a perv ted Gospel it is nothing new,we should pray for the person,but follow the Word

  • ebooksulit

    Disfellowship Rob Bell… His stand about this is not evangelical and is an abomination to the christian doctrine.

  • George Brandon

    Love does not win in the case of Rob Bell, love for the world is enmity with God!!!

  • NaNTHuel

    Love actually Does conquer Sin, for if it were not so then We would Have Not an need Of The CHrists’ restoration work within us. Because Of His Work, We turn away from Our Sins, and not to return to those things which We Have Been DelivereD fr0m. If upon that We, The Body Of Christ, are charged to continue His work , to counsel, teach, eDify, encourage, bring Healing. Man can assuredly lose His Way, Become an outcast, and to The Sows of meeting The Man to bring Healing, the KinD that restoreth Your Soul. There has Been a sincere absence of Counselor & Teacher from My Door for The last 2 Days and 1 Day is counted as a Thousand.

  • Goodman 60

    Romans 1

  • Blessed58

    Pastors like Rob make the gate wider since the bible and Jesus made it too narrow for modern man!? Soon we shall welcome and accept practicing paedophiles as the society becomes more tolerant of deviant behaviours and life styles!

  • Katie Koontz

    I was a young adult in college when his first book grew to mass popularity it was appealing but as I read it the Holy Spirit quickened my heart to not follow his work. I couldn’t put my finger on it but I trusted The Lord to give discernment.

    I believe that in order to navigate this world of intense deception we MUST live by the Spirit and know our shepherds voice. It’s not about Rob, this is about the driving influence of Satan (yes I said it).

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    Eph. 6:12
    Is what Rob saying wrong? Of course. Get your sword out Christian! Pray, speak the Word of God, live it before men. Don’t be intimidated to declare what true love is… That Jesus laid down his life for us to be free from the power of sin, freedom from such bondage as homosexuality, and all sorts of wickedness that dwells in hearts of humankind.

    We cannot get through this with anything other than supernatural wisdom. Jesus sent us his own Spirit to counsel us. Take counsel.

  • Edward

    Ephesians 5:25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansingb her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”

    Romans 16:17
    Now I beseech you, brothers, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned; and avoid them.

  • James LeBlanc

    when two men love each other then why not let them marry. Same-sex marriage would be a good thing

  • RevHightower

    I don’t know Mr. Bell, but, same sex marriage is against God’s word. How can the same sex go forth and mulitply. God made everything to produce seed of it’s own kind. If you preach against the Word of God, you are an Antichrist. Brother, I still love you, but the spirit that’s within you I HATE!

  • Dwight

    We ought to obey God rather than man. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.

  • homosapiens

    Yey for Rob Bell! It is the only Godly and sane position! I can not understand for the love of God why would anyone and any Christian be against what God has created, including gay people! Christ was for all people, the only ones he was angry with were leaders like you who write against! He was for radical inclusion and for love! You guys are for hate, which is so sad! Go Rob Bell!

  • Wyatt

    God has said what He thinks of this lifestyle. He calls it an abomination. My position is to extend grace to whosoever will; but never to endorse any sinful lifestyle whatever that may be.

  • Hal

    This shows the sickness of many of the self appointed leaders in Christianity today. Do you hear the toilet flushing as USA Christianity ,,,, then our country ,, go down the toilet? This is end times for America or it is the beginning of a great revival where Rob Bell type heretics are pushed out of the front and Jesus Christ is honored and followed. We are taught to love without becoming like them. Many of our churches chose to become the world view instead of teaching God’s world view. Simple choice,,, Heretics or Jesus Christ… it is an individual decision

  • Pastor Collins

    Where is the love the bible talks about…surely not here. Love everybody and let God take care of the sin. This is why the church is experiencing a slow death because she is blooding slowly like the woman with the issue of blood. Because she is to pious. You who is without sin cast the first stone. We are losing thousands of souls because we are seating on are high and mighty seat(your sin is worst than mine so you don’t deserve Grace). Look at the blood that’s on your hands brothers and sisters

    • RAMJR

      The love God brings, is not a compromising love, it is a convicting love. It does not stand in sin, nor does it accept it.

      The church is full of ‘wheat’ and ‘tares’, the real sons and daughters of Christ, and the false ones.

      Revelations is clear, even to the point false teachers, pastors/clergy will mislead many hearts, even their own. It clearly says those that pray, teach and even heal in Gods name, are not really God’s children…but He will use the just and unjust to further His Kingdom to come.

      While I do agree there are many hypocrites that say one thing and do another, the Bible is clear in pointing that God’s children’s words will match with their actions and hearts…even though none can claim free of sin, but in following Christ want to know if they stand in sin…and if they do, to confront it in themselves and the confession to the help of others, in grace, that faced the same challenges to change in their lives. Not perfect, but forgiven, in repentance, the act of which calls for facing the whole truth of sin/sins in our lives, confessing to ourselves and God in those sins, repenting in turning away from. Not confronting or foolishly acting like we can conquer them alone, without help from others in these sins.
      There are those who were homosexuals, same as those who had sex before marriage, adultery, masturbation and in pornography. It takes sources that have been through those struggles, to show what in proclaimed in the Bible, “Such WERE some of you” in the standing we have to make the personal decision to know what is and is not sin in our lives, and when we do know, not to follow those that falsely state these are not sins.
      It’s called Righteous Judgment, and stands above the tactic of “Judge not” when why that was said by Jesus, who Jesus said it to, and the hypocrisy Jesus was pointing out in why it had to he said, in truth to confront the double talk and double standards.
      In all honesty, as Christians we can’t pick and choose sexual sin. It is under the same banner of sin…and those that bring it into the church, much like a man and his family asking to become members…and then right before confirmed points at another woman and says, “Oh, and this is my girlfriend, and she wants to join with us.” Anybody here can clearly see that would be apostate in standing also.
      I do believe many ‘Christians’ could be called with ‘blood on their hands’, as you stated, but only in not understanding we have all fallen short of being with God, accept by the grace of Jesus, and the blood He spilled. But that is also not mocked, in compromise, picking and choosing sin or mocking God in our hearts, let alone voices/words. God Bless.

  • frank

    Stupid, Stupid, The wages of SIN is DEATH, get the plcture. You and nobody on this earth can make anything GOD condemn right. And you in the same token can’t cause GOD.S love to sanctions. Rob Bell got a devil, the work of the Antichrist

  • Dr. Joseph P. Chavez

    Rob Bell repeatedly states, “I am” and “I think.” Jesus said, I can do nothing unless My Father tells me to” (paraphrase). What does God think and what does God say. We are too afraid of the faces of people to see their lives changed. There is only one King and only one Kingdom. It is God’s word on the matter not man’s opinion. I have trained many pastors and leaders and have sought this out from what God says and I find nothing to support mankind’s continued deviation from God plan and purpose. And I fully agree with you that it is no surprise coming from Rob Bell, and that many will be influenced by his self-induced deception. Nevertheless we must pray for him and many others who are on this track (or should I say, “off the track). The bastion of truth is being erroded by leaders like Bell. Please forgive if I sound a bit aggressive but I am tired of these “notable” maaking headlines while the real heroes of the faith get no voice on these issues.

  • Eugene

    No man died for the sins of man therefore no right to use his opinion as truth.

  • usertm3172

    So we let the ship has sailed? What ship, should the ship define the culture of the church?

  • champions4him

    Jesus said it best in Matthew 23:15 when He said, “15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”

  • libssukkalot

    “THERE IS NO GREATER DECEPTION” than to “pave the road to hell for someone with comforts and encouragements that misleads them into thinking they can go against God’s Word”…only to find in the end they can’t enter into His Kingdom!

  • Charles Brooks

    We read in James 4:4 that to be friends of the world makes us enemies of God. It doesN#t get much clearer than that.

  • rtp000

    The scriptures warn us about the false teachers and prophets, but sadly we forget that all false prophets and teachers were called to be such by the Lord, and that their own personal weaknesses cause them to become false. Paul instructs us to test the teaching we receive and the fruit that Rob Bell bears is obviously not of the Holy Spirit. Instead of leading by the Holy Spirit, he is leading by charisma and charm and the fruit that Rob now bears is obviously of the world and he has fallen into the trap that is set for all Pastors, teachers, etc..

    Rob Bell’s Nooma videos I always enjoyed. He was creative and compelling in sharing the gospel in those videos. Sad that he had chosen the wide path of the unrighteous and forsaken the word instead of holding true to the truth! We do need to pray for those in positions of leadership so that they do not become swayed by the world, and Rob needs our prayers and intercession too.


    Apostates are getting easier to see…and harder also.
    Tolerance….a pass on morality, a pass on commonsense, a pass on truth, a pass on standing…a pass on God. (Micah 6:8) Christian love and justice, is commanding. Love does not set aside truth, and truth does not set aside love.
    TOLERANCE and LOVE, CANNOT co-exist (as many bumper stickers state we should).
    Tolerance says I must be indifferent…Jesus never compromised truth or with sin.
    Unless you can discern (have the God given knowledge) right from wrong, you cannot understand Christian love. We are COMMANDED to stand by and in Christ Jesus.
    ANYTHING sexual, in action or thought, outside of a man and woman in marriage, is sin in the eyes of God.

  • frank

    Antichrist; JUDE 1:4 false teacher; Romans 1:18 -32 God’s Wrath Against All Unrighteousness; Hosea 4:6 people perish

  • Rev.Thomas Struss

    Marrage between same sex is biblically sin ; must be repented of biblically , turn from the sin . No one condems individuals but through the Love in the word of God lead them to the Biblical truth. The Bible is the final word .!!!!!!!

  • Blackacex2

    The ship has sailed- it was the ark.

  • frank

    This what everyone in this website or 2 know that this is a gay web movement. Y’all don’t care nothing about God. Can’t you see whats going on here, The Bible states to the True Believers not to case your pearls before — get this–Swine, thats a pig, aka Hog. They know not what to eat. Lol. This laughter is not for mockery, but Truth of this deceitful website. All of this back and forward mumbo jumbo, too what end is it. DEATH and more the same. “If they hear not the law and the prophet how than shall they hear one from the dead”

  • rodney

    As long as God’s Word is the basis of moral authority, life and living (and it is and will be for eternity) it does not matter what Rob Bell or any other person thinks, including Barak Obama, God has spoken. Genesis and Jesus make it clear, marriage is a Covenant between a Man, a Woman, and God. Therefore it is impossible for two people of the same sex to be married. Furthermore, homosexual activity/relationships are forbidden by Scripture. I feel genuine compassion for people who struggle with homosexual urges. But the issue is not about my feelings, it is about God and His Book. No one will change that- Bell, Obama, the U.S. Supreme Court or any other government institution. May God’s Spirit open the eyes of those who could be misled by these false prophets.



  • Steph Boardman

    We love the sinner, (of which we all are ( Is 53:6) but hate the sin. I love the person, but our sin, whatever it is, misses the mark. Living in purity of heart, births true freedom.(John 8:32)
    I had to choose obedience to Gods Word over my feelings in many areas of my life…including sexuality!
    Jesus help us to know that ALL our choices have consequences accoding to Your Word…TRUE freedom is found in purity, not pursuing our own desires..Psm 37:4,5-all…Abiding in His loving truth!

  • YouthPstrRoy

    I pray he realizes his theologically flawed view, although I don’t think he will because he might just enjoy the attention it gets him within the Christian community. Either way, pray for him,

  • least of these

    Bell’s ship as sailed into the of ocean of self righteousness and world influence. The last I read the Word in required Christians to live above the standards of the world, not according to the culture and waves of the popular. It is become consistently evident the presence of fox among the flock of God’s chosen. My recommendation the youths, look to the Word of God to instruct you on the values of life as well as who are genuine shepherds sent by God. These are the last days. Love must be first but love of what, same sex is not a reflection of the love of God…it is one thing to acknowledge the love of God for all man but to accept their actions in something else. Mr. Bell please use the God’s position on the matter, not how you feel about or what others may say or feel about it. If you truly love your followers and those who practice or support LBGT. Then you feed with the truth of God’s Word not “human facts”, feelings about or opinion on the subject.

  • John McElhaney

    Just another false prophet as everyone should have relized, Why does people get taken in by these apostates, oh yea, they are blind to the truth.

    • Roy D Durrence

      Again I say, we are living in a time that mirrors that of Jude. Rob Bell and others like him are of those same spoken of in verse 3, “For there are certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men turning the Grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ”.

  • Jeffery Anselmi

    I guess when you are as “big” as Rob Bell the bible says what YOU want it to say. We are to love all, but that does not mean everything that is done is right

  • Ronp

    There is huge number of believers who never were enamored with this man…abandoning Biblical authority is a slippery slope…I am afraid there is more to come…sadly the gospel has been betrayed…
    Anathema to Bell and his ilk.

  • Guest

    It is not a surprise that you believe that lie. It is obvious that you don’t believe that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant Word of God. Either you don;t read and study it or even live by it or you just haven’t read Romans 1:26-32. Sin is sin and sinful lifestyles are the choices that people make but they don’t make God’s word null and void!

  • John Nurse

    It is obvious that Mister Bell does not believe God’s infallible, inerrant word, the Bible. For the Bible is very clear about all sin and sinful lifestyles of mankind. If he does not like to read much of the word, he should read a very small portion of Romans, chapter one, verses 21 through verse 32. If he cannot understand it he should go to a Commentary for further clarification.

  • Pastor Brad

    What about the power and authority of God’s Word? Isn’t marriage between man and woman God’s plan for creation? I heard an Ethiopian Lutheran pastor say a few months ago that they look at culture through the lense of the Scripture, rather then Scripture through the lense of culture. Maybe Pastor Bell needs to consider this…

  • Ryan

    How long before men and women start to marry thier dogs and have sexual relations with them and then justify this as being acceptible with God? People can do what they want and justify it but as for me, I choose to follow God’s ways the best I can because I love God. We all have some sort of sin problems in one way or the other. It keeps us all humble. But God forbid I justify it and cause others to follow the evil I do and fall with me. We will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give an account for everything we do, good and bad. It’s one thing to justify our actions before men but it’s going to be another to justify those before a holy God who set the standards.

  • gwander53

    So, let me get this. Christians are supposed to abandon millenia of teaching based upon the Bible and conform to the world’s standards? If he hasn’t already done so, Rob Bell has disqualified himself for ministry.

  • David Tanner

    Give thanks that he is not my pastor.He is right,this is the world we live in,but Christ told us not to be of this world.Everyone does not go to heaven,scripture is clear.
    Any sex out of marriage is a sin,scripture only refers to marriage as between a man and woman.If two people want to live together in a loving relationship that is fine,but they must reframe from sexual activity and it is not marriage.
    This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you,that God is light,and in him is no darkness at all.If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness,we lie and do not practice the truth.
    But if walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another,and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
    If we say we have no sin,we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.If we confess our sins,he is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.If we say we have not sinned,we make him a liar,and the truth is not in us. 1John1:5-10

  • Pastor Ken

    The bible is clear! If we relax our stance on the sin of homosexuality and marriage, next thing you know they’ll be making it impossible to sell our daughters as slaves or stone people to death for adultery and working on the sabbath! Then whatll happen to the church? It simply can’t change with whims of man!

  • Brent Enloe

    God already settled this discussion in the Garden of Eden:

    Genesis 2:24 YLT

    “therefore doth a man leave his father and his mother, and hath cleaved unto his wife, and they have become one flesh.”

    it says man and wife… not man and man, not wife and wife, but man and wife.

  • Bro. Sal

    Sometimes well-meaning Christians tell people that they have to “clean up their lives” before God will accept them, but that is not what we see in Scripture. When speaking to the woman at the well who was living with a man she was not married to, Jesus addressed the fact of her sin, then offered her the salvation she needed. Again, when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus, he told her “go, and sin no more.” The sin was never excused or ignored, but forgiveness was offered to anyone who recognized the truth of their sin and was willing to confess and forsake it. (emphasis on recognize & forsake). While God certainly expects us to leave our sin, that comes as a part of our salvation, not as a prerequisite. We are not able to clean ourselves up without God’s help.
    I would like to think that all of God’s Ministers welcomes sinners. Truth be told, your churches are already full of them. But, the church being a hospital, so to speak, the intention is to get well. In other words – recognize & forsake your sinful nature. 1Corinthians Chapter 6 verses 9 & 10 (as well as other scripture verses) tell us of all those who illicitly practice sin will not inherit God’s Kingdom. Then Verse 11 say, “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” — Get it? AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU.

    God ordained marriage between a man & a women, not two well meaning, unrepentant, men or two ‘truly in love’, but mis-guided women. The LGBT community appeals to ur natural desire to feel empathy for other humans – & so we should. But lets be realistic – Take a look at the actual, physical expression of their love. It is un-natural. Well outside of God’s intent & addressed again & again in the Holy Scriptures as an abomination to God. There is no mixing of words there. I do truly love & pray for LGBT that they would forsake their sinful nature & come to know God’s will for them, just as all we other sinners had to do. Repentance is truly wonderful in the sight of God. Try it… His forgiveness is free!

  • amos8

    The following quote is from an interview with Christianity Today Rob Bell (and his wife):

    “The Bells started questioning their assumptions about the Bible itself—”discovering THE BIBLE AS A HUMAN PRODUCT,” as Rob puts it, rather than the product of divine fiat.”

    Now, with this foundation, we can all be our own authority!

    “A horrible and shocking thing
    has happened in the land:
    The prophets prophesy lies,
    the priests rule BY THEIR OWN AUTHORITY,

  • Pastor Gary

    Dear Rob Bell….Stop the madness.

  • amos8

    I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message;
    I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied.
    But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people
    and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds.

  • amos8

    This is what the Lord Almighty says:
    “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you;
    they fill you with false hopes.
    They speak visions from their own minds,
    not from the mouth of the Lord. They keep saying to those who despise me,
    ‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’
    And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts
    they say, ‘No harm will come to you.’

    But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?”

  • Sartor


  • Dalia

    Just preach the word. I preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The most loving words you could say are, “If you don’t turn away from this perversion, you will go to hell.”. This is the most loving thing to say. Accept it or don’t. It’s your choice.

  • SnootGrammarian

    At first I was excited when I was introduced to Rob Bell’s work. A pastor with a passion of ecumenical application of Greek/Hebrew epistemology: how many of those in mainstream Christian thought could we boast in the 21st century? With Love Wins, I was left wondering exactly how serious he was about the letter of the law. Sympathy for those without faith is one thing, but arguing we’re on playing on level ground with them is not. Christ was selling a “lifestyle” as much as he was a belief-system.

    The church has moved to focus on comfort, acceptance, and welcomeness instead of truth. Now cunning rhetoricians like Bell will say something like “truth is bringing love to the people.” Well how do you love God? By obeying his commandments. When we return to the standards the early church held its members to, nothing bad can come of it. The cultural marxists and the secularists will decry us as philistines, barbarians and bigots, but they already do that now. At least then, with real Christian communities, the fruits of our lives will be in stark contrast to the secular degradation and people can make the decision for themselves which community they want to be a part of.

  • P.J.

    The marriage debate is basically this question: shouldn’t homosexual couples have the “right” to marry, since all heterosexuals have that right? First, we must realize that marriage is not a “right” given to all heterosexual couples. If you don’t believe me, try getting a marriage license to marry your first cousin – or your sister. You would meet the heterosexual criteria yet still be denied a marriage license based on the fact that being so closely related, you cannot procreate in a healthy manner (start a family). So the privilege of marriage is reserved for those who have the potential (as not all couples can get pregnant) to start a family. Once you understand this, why should homosexuals be given a “right” (privilege) that is withheld from others who can not start a healthy family?

  • Cross Pointe

    Wolf in Sheeps clothing

  • Roy D Durrence

    Many years ago there was a man of God who wrote quite a bit of important information concerning Rob Bell to which we should take heed. Although he did not call Rob by name he was speaking of him and many others of the same character. You can read what he had to say about them in the 65th Book of the Holy Bible , Jude.

    • amos8

      Yes, it accurately describes “postmodernism” and the emergent church (and McLaren, Bell, etc).

  • sam Devavaram

    What bible says matters and not Rob bell….

  • Tod Thompson

    If we reject Jesus’ words defining marriage being between one man and one woman then holding to any of the rest of it is a joke. Why be concerned with fidelity? If you reject part of the Biblical definition because “we live in different times” then why not reject the whole? If we are now making up our own morality then just do as you please.

  • Rob

    Yep, this confirms it. Rob Bell never had any validity as a leader in the church.

  • jrb

    The Bible says the path is not easy. Every choice we make must take into account what God wants. We are to walk the path in faith and not what the rest of the secular world desires.

  • Cecille

    One thing is clear from where he stands then. He’s one of those false prophets trying to convince and deceive many. Right is right. And wrong is wrong. The Bible says so.

  • Sebastian

    This is clearly a sign of Christ’s imminent return. When the world pursues a wrong path we should be grieved, when the church pursues the wrong path we should be …….

  • Ronoutdoors

    Just another example of Bell’s disregard for scripture and bowing to political correctness. It is not my job to just him but I would not want to be in his shoes when God does.

  • MelPrad

    In short, Rob Bell is one of the false teachers that the Bible says we should be aware of. Not all who claim they are Christian preachers preach the “Pure Word” of God. I can’t stop thinking: Are these people (preachers at that) really “born again”? Only God knows.

  • Sherry Cooper Green

    Homosexuality is SIN and an abomination to Almighty God anyone who says gays should be allowed to be leaders in the church are false teachers I believe God is grieving over the sin in the church . Yes we are to love gays but we are suppose to reach them the truth and I wonder if many in the church even believe truth anymore!!! It is very sad and our nation will be judged just like. Sodom and Gomorrah. Jesus is coming soon people need to be ready!!!! Any minister of God who goes along with same sex marriage has sold their soul to the devil!!! Read the Word of God it is very plain!!!

  • Wayne McEntire

    “slow fade” – too many are there now.

  • ARG

    I as well have major concern for Rob Bell’s positions. But he has already started on the slippery slope when stating there is no hell, that God is a God of Love and we are all going to end up in heaven anyway. So it really doesn’t matter what position Rob Bell and his followers have or take with regards to Homosexuality. If we all end up in heaven with a loving God we all might as well do whatever feels good and please ourselves because it doesn’t matter how we live anyway. Sounds like the words of Solomon in Eccl. then again I think we are finding ourselves saying as did Solomon “There is nothing new under the sun.” we’ve been here before and we are here again. I fear the greater concern is for many who follow Rob Bell and his teachings. Jesus said narrow is the path that leads to heaven and FEW that find it. Call me narrow-minded but I’d rather be a Christ follower than a Rob Bell follower because Jesus also said “wide is the road that leads to destruction and many find it” and it seems that in Mr. Bell’s desire to be all loving and inclusive has hopped on that road and many are those who are hopping on with Him.

  • The Prophet

    The parable of the sower comes to mind. No matter how long one may profess Christ, if salvation never took, the falling away will take place no matter how long. Maybe he was always a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Yet, I for the most part, usually appreciated Rob Bell’s teaching and ministry for its impact on a great number of people. 2 Timothy 4:2-5

  • JJ

    This is just the beginning – or should I say continuation, started many years ago with the accept of abortion. Next step (already being discussed in some western countries governments) is church acceptance of new family constructions; 2 mothers and a father or even 3 fathers! Consider the implications with a divorce. The kids have to relate to a mesh of new relations. It’s also being discussed if mariage/sex to pets should should be legislated – and at the same time sex between family members. Is that what Gods body, the church want to support? I’m not sure it was Gods intention from the beginning. It’s the result of humans attemot to break barriers.

  • uureverend

    Once again, Rob Bell is spot-on. The church must meet religious and cultural pluralism with the love of Christ, and not with the false judgment of Pharisees and Sadducees. How God must weep when we turn away God’s children because of how God made them. If that isn’t idolatry, I don’t know what is.

    • amos8

      “How God must weep when we turn away God’s children because …” so many undermine God’s Word, fail to bring the hope of the true gospel and the much required reconciliation that comes through confession, repentance, and forgiveness of sin.

  • joann dixon

    When Jesus gave ‘absolution’ to Mary, His clear instruction was,”Go, and Sin No More”; I am divorced after 23 years of struggle, therefore I remain single; For 2 years I abused alcohol; I am now totally abstinent of alcohol,drugs,nicotine for 43 years; marriage is a condition of the State and Federal government; I am horrified to think of a Christian pastor performing a same sex marriage; let those who wish to drink, gamble, have ilicit sex whether before, during, after marriage, or seek out prostitution, pornography etc. do so; May God forbid the church ever condoning this; pardoning yes, but with the explicit and implicit meaning of “Sin No More”. There was a time women couldn’t/wouldn’t wear trousers, or go to church without a hat. Now they crush out cigarettes next to church steps, wearing clothing fit only for the bedroom or shower. May the Lord have mercy on us all. Come quickly, Lord Jesus, Come….

  • BuzzyActual

    We were warned over and over about false teachers and preachers and that in the end times they would be loud and destroy many.

  • Aaron

    What is the LGBT?

    • Jon

      Lesbian, gay, bi-sexual & transsexual

  • Andrew Mason

    Great article Brian! For me, people are already confused about the Gospel and Bible. Bell’s positions makes confused people even more confused in my opinion. I think we are “out-smarting” ourselves sometimes in an effort to be more palatable. However, I believe the simple truths of the Bible are “salty” when we communicate them clearly and live them out in love, grace and integrity. I think Bell is living on the edge right now.

  • revgabel

    Same sex marriages and divorce are two totally different areas. In the area of divorce there is forgiveness and the hope of not continuing it the sin as Christ told the woman caught in Adultry, “go sin no more”… Christ calls us to repent from our sin and strive to sin no more. If someone stops killing, if someone stops stealing, if someone stops lying, if someone stops cheating, and repents from thier sin they can be forgiven and restored… key is repent… if you continue to live in the sin… one has not truly repented

  • Pastor john

    I am not surprise at what is happening in the church today ,the end is here and the house of God is the first place where the says judgement would begin from.No one adulterates the bible that won’t be judged by it.Gay is sin plain and simple.

  • Hersh, or is it Harsh

    I believe Rob Bell doesn’t “Get it.”

    Okay I gotta jump in…. I thought the Word mentioned something
    about…. REPENTANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, so if I don’t have to
    repent…. if I can carry on my natural sinfulness… I’ll snort a mountain
    of cocaine and have sex with all your wives!!!! That’s SARCASM!!!!

    Seriously people… if we do NOT have to repent… I’ll be the first one jumping
    back in… BUT before I do I am going to kill the liar who told me I needed to repent from my sins (What God calls sin).

    I think the comments will be flying now…..

  • mkdb

    I ran across the following, it is perfect, especially for today:

    An an interview on Friday, noted emergent church author and speaker
    Brian ‘Bob’ McBellweathervane spoke out in support of student cheating.

    “When you look at what’s going on the culture around us, it’s clear
    that the ship has sailed on integrity. Statistics show that about 75%
    of high school and college students cheat in their academic work.. And
    then they come to church and hear sermons on the value of truthfulness,
    integrity, and honor, it turns them off. Young people today don’t really
    see what the fuss is all about. They don’t believe it’s hurting
    anybody. And in the end, it’s making the church ghettoized and
    unpopular. What’s more, when you get down to the reasons why they’re
    cheating, it ultimately comes down to feeling the need to get ahead. I’m
    for people overcoming economic disadvantages. I’m for people skirting
    around the great injustice of our economic system. I’m for people
    getting a break, whether it’s through good hard honest work, or if it’s
    through making it appear to everyone else that you’ve done the good hard
    honest work.”

  • Brad C. Schield

    I find it a provocative and revealing statement here when somebody cites sodomy ( and the Bible does in fact define homosexuality as sodomy) as an “unfixable” sexual orientation. So the lofty thinking is this…sin which is a fixable condition according to God is not really fixable when it comes to homosexuality. In my experience its the devil that always speaks in double-minded context. What a true believer understands is that the fix was made on the cross at a great price. What the gay and lesbian community needs to come to terms with is the fact they have been bought with a price they are not their own! The question God asks of us all is what are you willing to give up for Him to inherit the kingdom of God? Unfortunately for the gay and lesbian community they want their citizenship in God’s kindgom without any sacrificial living-thats the bottom line . And by the way…sacrifical living is the key to acceptable and true worship of God. See the book of Romans

    • Richard Dey

      Before Christians have a fainting fit, let it be fully understood that the Supreme Court was never asked to promote or leagalize “gay marriage” for straight people, male or female, leastwise Americans. The question before the court was whether any American had the right to deny marriage to gay people. That’s as much difference, frankly, as between straight and gay. Christians, most notably, claimed that gay people were “redefining” marriage, it’s obligations, responsibilities, and|or its innumerable fincal and social benefits. The question, rather, was always whether heterosexuals had the right to deny homosexuals those amenities. Because heterosexuals took it for granted that they had the right to grant themselves so many things which straight marriage denied to homosexuals the Court decided, rightly, that marriage thereby benefited straight people and denied their fellow gay citizens those self-awarded rewards. “Marriage”, as defined by heterosexuals, unfairly advantaged themselves because homosexuals were denied the right to raise children. Because that all cost money, gay people were allowed to raise children — but not allowed to adopt them or make them legal. Straights made orphans into bastards. Gays begged to differ. The straight language was crooked because it was read cock-eyed. Not finding themselves in the Bible, straights grabbed a pencil ….

      Surely the penalties of “allowing” gay people to marry won’t be more difficult than rereading the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Monogamy (at which straights are such failures, leaving plenty of orphans for gay people to raise up and pay for). In fact, the only absolutely mogamous couple I’ve ever known in my life were two amputee war veterans who ran a camp for orphaned girls in Maine. Christians here have emphasized the sacrifices needed to maintain a marriage, suggesting that “the gay lifestyle” is incapable of such sacrifice. That’s just the snobbery that comes from false witness, presumption, and arrogance, all of which the Bible forbids. Has Democracy — a gay lifestyle since it was invented by pederasts in Greece — proven unworthy? Hey, it’s been better than monarchy, royalty, and all that other straight claptrap of divine kings, queens, and kingdoms! Democracy has been proved the best way to defend heterosexuals — and it has proved to be the best means homosexuals have had in defending themselves from heterosexual homophobes. Neither Christians nor the Bible have a monopoly on morality; it’s “the moral majority” — not “the moral monopoly”. In ANY event, when was fellatio NOT a Christian virtue? Not since Christians couldn’t perform autofellatio?

      The legalization of gay marriage is frustrating, no doubt; but Christians will get used to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and minding its own busiess — even as it’s gotten to flying around in gay airplanes. Gay people have survived the flaming straight lifestyle and its bonfires of gay men and witches, straights can survive the glaring truth of the gay Enlightenment.

  • JsB

    How does God feel about gay people? 

    He sees their heart. He sees their pain. He knows WHY they are drawn to this. He loves them. He LOVES them. He died for them. 

    Love cuts through everything, and covers a multitude of sins. It’s Gods goodness that leads people to repentance. 

    What you do in the voting box is important, but what we talk, write, and preach should be LOVE (in word and deed). Let’s get to know someone who is gay and love them like Christ did. Maybe then we will see their heart and be able to give them a glimpse of His goodness. 

    Let’s blow the world away with our love— it’s afterall how they should know we are Christians. 

    • Truth Guest

      He loves them but HATES their lifestyle.

  • Deana Callins

    Is It a Time to Rejoice? How can the people of God rejoice. When there is so much destruction around us and may people locked up in the prisons of their mind, and no one seems to lift a finger or their “Voice”. Just Business as usual. How can we rejoice and see; The world Is In chaos and destruction. And Why do people of Faith get mad when “The Lord” sends a “warning” through his “witnesses” of the pending destruction, if there is no change in our ways. It’s not time for rejoicing. LOOK AROUND YOU!!! And people clearly see this happening around them. And yet, They still are not crying out to God with a sincere Heart of “Repentance”. It seems like many people want to live a self sufficient life. No one wants to be convicted of anything. No one wants to say “I was wrong” or I’m sorry for anything. No Conviction means No Honesty, no accountability for our actions and no change. “Pride” comes before a fall. There is a Time for everything. Right now leaders are having revival. But I hope, as a people it has “Repentance” towards our only Savior and Deliverer. His Name is Jesus Christ. The only Name above Every Name. The only person that Can Deliver this Nation from Destruction. You better RUN to your prayer closets. Everyone…… Let [people See the Love of the Lord In you and Through You. Towards All People. Stop thinking if people are not wealthy, or a celebrity they don’t have “Power”. Because my strength and power comes from the Lord. Not my wallet!

  • Dianaforhim

    Bell is departing from the validity of God’s Word and following after his own righteousness, like so many in society today. It’s why we have these ridiculous arguments about something so obviously wrong as abortion. It’s a dangerous slope we’re on because our young, many of which don’t yet have a solid foundation of Christian values are accepting the New Age theory that truth is relative. When Christians discover leaders who turn away from solid values, they need to confront in love, in an attemp to rescue that leader before he becomes another victim of New Age philosophy.

  • Truth and love

    I think most people ignore a terrible thing happening in our society in this topic of homosexuality: child abuse and broken families.

    I am still to get to know a person who considers themselves to be an homosexual who hasn’t been abused when they were a little child, or who has grown in a family who loved and affirmed them as individuals, having a good referential of a father and of a mother.

    If we exclude these circumstances from a person’s life, we are left with a very, very small number of people who decided to experience same-sex relationships, who after enjoying the pleasure it gives and, being hurt by past relationships, “decide” to live a homosexual life.

    Instead of judging people for their choices, we should love them and help them to find healing for the deep wounds they have been inflicted. Like Jesus does for us.
    We are all sinners and all deserve hell.

    Jesus should be our mirror and our response to anyone who is dead under the weight of sin.

    • Thomas Latcham

      Truth and love always speak with truth and love – because your words are encouraging

      • Guest

        Love sometimes speaks a tough language.

  • Keith

    It is a shame Rob Bell has apparently never read the Bible. What part of “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, he must be put to death” don’t you understand Rob?

  • Kenny

    Why do we still give Rob Bell so much attention? He is a heretic, a false prophet, and much more. Enough on the dialogue over Bell’s self-serving, apostate musings. Let’s lift up King Jesus, and learn from the godly and the righteous. Bell needs to fade, so why give him any attention at all??

  • Toby

    It is only by sitting across the table of a young man dying of aids lamenting the loss of the dreams for his live, and working in homes of totally committed, same sex, individuals that has let me to question the posturing of my fellow Christian contemporaries on this subject. Would you, for example, use the same judgmental language if instead of using the words” same sex marriage” you would say “gluttonous live style”, or “over eating”? The punishment was the same, after all— -stoning !!!! Sexuality is just a small portion of a person’s live and yet we Christians, in the west, eat more, waste more and pollute more, overindulge our children, our homes are way to big and we generally live gluttonous lifestyles and yet we stand in judgement over such a small segment of the population (less than 5%). Until we ask questions like: At what age did you realize that you reacted different to the opposite gender? How painful has it been, for you, to live with these conflicting feelings? How hurtful have others reacted towards you? And then inquire as to where gender identity issues come from, we should better ask God to give us grace and love rather than judgement. While I honestly do not understand this lifestyle, I believe that the “Churches” stand on this issue has partially contributed to the militancy of gay individuals. I am not surprised. Again, I must say: shame on us all !!!!

    • Geoff Bynum

      Toby, none of the examples of sin you mentioned should be accepted, celebrated, embraced or ignored. We need to speak out on all these issues because of the devastating effect they have on our lives… which were meant to glorify God. It isn’t that one sin is worse than the other, it’s that all sinfulness brings a life so much less than what God has intended for us. What if the young man you speak of who is dying of AIDS had fully committed his life to Christ and sought His power for overcoming his same-sex attraction? Your example proves the point. Do we really think Jesus is too weak to bring us into life and grant us to power to live in ways that please God? Whether it’s sex, food, money or things, a life committed to glorifying God FIRST and walking with Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit can find healing, deliverance and wholeness in every area. I’m not saying we will experience perfection or sinlessness in this age. But we are accepting so much less than what I’m certain IS available in this age, that we offer incredibly weak arguments for judging people’s choices. Of course this life Christ offers requires that we first die to ourselves (1Peter 2:24) so that we might live for Christ. That’s the truth that no one wants to hear any more. And yet in it, is the truly abundant life that Jesus Christ offers. It is very possible to love people who are captive to sin and still expect Jesus to bring power and deliverance to them to live as God designed… if we believe the scriptures as God’s authoritative word on the matter. If…

  • Dewayne Guyton

    This is a stupid argument that is clearly answered in the Bible!!! Those of you who are proclaiming ANYTHING contrary to what the Word of God says, GET OUT OF THE PULPIT!!! You are false prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing!!! Here’s your answer, and nothing else needs to be said other than “AMEN!”. For way too long people in the church have been hand picking what was sin and what was acceptable! NO SIN IS ACCEPTABLE!!! Thus the reason Christ said several times “GO AND SIN NO MORE!”.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV)
    “9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
    Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers,
    nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And
    such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified,
    but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit
    of our God”

    • Thomas Latcham

      Dewayne I am with you in spirit on the matter.
      Very well said and please encourage those you know to hold firm to the truth.
      Truth hurts. One example. Take me – if you will – a sinful man – but Jesus healed my eyes tonight in church and I no longer need my glasses
      Now Dewayne I praise God for this

  • Franklin N. Ampah-Korsah

    No matter how strongly our sins are down played and “sugar-coated” in the church, THEY STILL ARE SINS BY GOD’S DEFINITION. The church should embrace all into its fold, BUT OUR SINS SHOULD BE PREACHED OUT OF US. What is the purpose of going to church if it is not to help us out of our sins….bringing us CLOSER TO GOD’S IMAGE ? The Church is to love sinners but it should be seen as PREACHING AGAINST SIN, NOT CONDONING SIN.

  • Genesis Berrios

    Homosexuality is not Gods will simple as that. In Genesis 3:15 God declares that a seed would be born that would take away satans dominion over man, of course God was pointing to the Christ. Satan concocted two ways to prevent that from happening ,homosexuality and abortion. What do you think was the sin in Noahs generation that caused the flood, homosexual marriage. It was so rampant in those days that it would have killed humanity off within a few generations so God had to perserve the seed by saving Noah and his family. Homosexuality represents death and extinction. It is not the will of God. Sure he loves them I love them but the lifestyle is diametrically oppossed to the will of God. As far as abortion is concerned remember when Moses was born Pharoahs decree was to kill all male hebrew children and when Christ was born Herod passed the same decree. Both issues are a direct threat to The Christ

  • Deji

    The word of God is the same yesterday, today and forever. No matter how modern we get, the Sin of yesterday is still a sin today.
    This is a classic act of rebellion. The devil is laughing. Be not deceived,you do not have to be up in arms but u must stand for what you believe.

    Never back down. Keep a good eye on your children. These people are recruiting and defiling children. Most of them were not born that way.
    May God help us all.

  • interceeding

    God deals with those who scatter his sheep. In the name of Jesus….. all have fallen and come short o f
    the Glory of God,May our Lord send the spirit of truth. Bob and many many others may Gods love cover ur sins and bring you to a place of a repenting heart . That the spirit of
    truth will lead u at Jesus feet…….in Jesus Name

  • Thomas Latcham

    The ship we are on is apparently going in the wrong direction so to speak please pardon the pun. Namely Jesus’ grace is abundant in our lives as followers of His word and we need to be examples of His love to others in our own lives. Yes Rob Bell speaks about grace and forgiveness and God’s greatest sacrifice His son and this is good and I have heard his past videos and was impressed. But no homosexual relationships are a perversion of what is natural. It says that men bear the shame in their bodies for this choice of lifestyle and this is evident. And neither does it ring true. Please – Rob – Do not compare a relationship between a man and a woman with a same sex relationship. Nothing could bring more pain in my own opinion than trying to love someone intimately when you are not able to and only end up taking instead of giving. God Bless you Rob I believe you speak up for what you are convicted about. But I am not for same sex partnerships. I am for God’s grace which means telling people how it really is.
    This is how it really is: God loves us: Gay: Straight: Single: Married: With a partner
    BUT and here is the butt
    There is no butt greater than your lovers when it is in the right place that God intended. But – a butt out of place – is no butt atall – And Will Be Sneezed At (Not meant with offense or hatred but designed with love to portray the seriousness of the situation we are all facing as a broken society)
    Thomas Latcham

  • Jon

    I am surprised Christians still listen to Rob after the “Love Wins ” book debacle.

    • amos8

      Me too! Rob Bell/”Love Wins” is not surprising, it is that soooo many Christians have little to no desire to discern that is surprising, and grieving.

  • Lori

    I understand that a sin is a sin whether it be homosexuality, pornography, alcoholism, self-righteousness, foul language, losing control of ones temper, etc. The rest of us sinners are not out trying to change society and the law to except our sin. So it’s not that we are hypocrites, it’s just that we are working through our iniquities through our relationship with Jesus Christ. Homosexuals, however, feel as though they can just get their lifestyle to not be viewed as a sin and then they will not have to feel guilty or change their way of life.

    • Truth Guest

      Yes, sin is sin. But as we see subjects come up in the church we need to face them with full force. If not, people slowly become deceived and unsensitized to darkens, wickedness and perversion.

    • Reginald

      Excellent explanation!

  • David Boerema

    Ecclesiastes 10:2 KJV

    2 A wise man’s heart is at his right hand; but a fool’s heart at his left.
    3 Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth him, and he saith to every one that he is a fool.
    4 If the spirit of the ruler rise up against thee, leave not thy place; for yielding pacifieth great offences.
    5 There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from the ruler:
    6 Folly is set in great dignity, and the rich sit in low place.
    7 I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth.
    8 He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

    What this is saying is that man tends to listen to the liberals who seek control of the media – the squeaky wheel… It continues to reflect that we have given them places to make their stand on immorality. This allowance is given through the people (leader)…We the people, it continues with verse 7, the voices of the unconsciously ignorant (servants on horses) are put there because We the people, have left our Bibles and History lessons so that we are no longer able to identify with truth due to our complication of the Gospel.

    Lastly, those that partake in this digging of the pit are destined for judgment. Our concerns ought to be for their souls by encouragement of the Gospel in its simplicity – remember, each time we see them speaking boldly in their liberalism, we are seeing a person who will scream in terror upon judgment – that should not be the hope of any of us.

    Our country will either make a stand on morality or find its end like Sodom.

  • Truth Guest

    JUDE 1

    3 Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints.

    4 For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

    5 Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

    6 And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

    8 Yet in like manner these also in their dreamings defile the flesh, and set at nought dominion, and rail at dignities.

    9 But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    10 But these rail at whatsoever things they know not: and what they understand naturally, like the creatures without reason, in these things are they destroyed.

    11 Woe unto them! For they went in the way of Cain, and ran riotously in the error of Balaam for hire, and perished in the gainsaying of Korah.

    12 These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

    13 Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved forever.

    14 And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,

    15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have ungodly wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their lusts (and their mouth speaketh great swelling words), showing respect of persons for the sake of advantage.

  • Stephen

    Saint Paul said he’d be all things to all people to win them to Christ. Is that how the Church is (i.e., us !) in relating to and loving gay and lesbian people.

  • kelley

    1 Corinthians 6:9,10. Read it, look it up! You cannot be in right standing with God and support what God calls sin! Homosexuality is sin! God is never going to change His mind about that! The church loves all people gay pr straight but we cannot support same sex marriage and have the favor of God! Pastor Bell open your eyes! You are being deceived!

    • Bill_Wall

      Read it, understand it, and get yourself free of the hatred and persecutorial spirit. Shed the spirit and attitude of the Pharisee and you will find liberty in Christ.

  • staad

    even the devil loves its own. christianity is NOT primarily about love, its about giving God the glory. and i have yet to hear any sodomizing homosexual admit that what they do is glorifying God. their kind of God is off-limits to/ respects their privacy and the secret things they do, as long as they love their fellow men and do good to society. hogwash!

    • Bill_Wall

      You got that right. Fundamentalist Christianity and conservative evangelical Christianity is not primarily about love…….in spite of the fact that God is Love. Turn from the hate and discover the liberty that is the love of Christ.

      Being blinded by prejudice is not a good thing.

  • g

    opposing homosexuality within your own religion is fine but putting that on people who do not believe what you do is violating their rights as American. if you want freedom to practice your religion in this country thats fine but please do not try and limit my rights. this is not a christian nation. it a nation with religious freedom. freedom for you to believe what you believe and for my to have my beliefs. dont fight my rights and claim you need to protect yours. you bible means nothing to me. stop using it to try and limit me. if you want to show me im wrong use the constitution.

    • Bill_Wall

      Christ would approve of the constitution even though many self-described Christians do not.

      The persecution of gay people goes against everything that Christ stood for so the fundamentalists are violating their own God with the hatred and condemnation. As a Christian, I would like to apologize on their behalf of their treatment of all gay people…….they know not what they do.

      • Amos8

        Telling “gay people” (and non “gay people”) that the bible says ____ is a sin, and sin is very harmful and separates us from God, but the good news (literally) is that there is a solution the problems that plagues all of us…” is now “hate”? Warning people of dire consequences is “persecution”?

        And not telling people this is now “love”?

        Wow, if we get to rephrase reality … like you did … in whatever way we want then I guess we can “win” any argument or debate and therefore belief whatever is true.

        Nothing could be more loving than to warn others of danger (be it error, sin, and the consequences) and to explain the solution (e.g. Jas 5:19-20). There are many Scriptures that repeatedly teach this, but now, only due to a change in the climate of the culture, this has now become “hate” and blamed on “fundamentalist” and “Pharisees” and “self-described Christians.” You do own many people an apology, perhaps more than an apology.

        Nothing could be more unloving and harmful … no matter how well-intended or how much a person cares … than not to warn others of the danger and error that threatens their well-being, if not their eternal destination. If you think billions and billions of people over thousands of years are wrong with what they believe the bible says regarding this (or anything else) then that is one thing, but to to summarily judge and condemn billions of people (erroneously) for what they believe about God’s Word as being hateful might just be extremely hateful.

        These people DO know what they do, and they would tell you they do it based on God’s unchanging, eternal, written Word (i.e. an objective source), and not on the shifting winds of the culture or feelings or desires of certain groups of people (e.g. 2 Tim 3:15-4:5).

        • Bill_Wall

          Nothing could be more harmful than to brand harmless people as sinners.

          Neither ignorance nor idolatry of the bible can twist sin in such a way as to satisfy heterosexuals’ distaste for homosexual acts and force it upon others. It is making God in your own image.

          To suggest that homosexuals separate themselves from God is the height of religious arrogance. As typical phariseeism goes “we know better than you.” Legalism separates people from God.

          Your post reminds me of parents who beat their children and say “I am only doing this because I love you.”

          Good luck as you drive the love out of Christianity and increase the speed at which people are leaving its institutions.

          • Amos8

            Again, if a person gets to rephrase reality into a distorted reality then there is no hope. Just because YOU or a small but growing and vocal group wants something to not be so, does not make it so. That is where there are objective standards, absolute truths, etc. we are all separated from God, we all sin, we all need to repent and be forgiven and restored to God. You cannot come in and call this “hate” or Phariseeism (notice that was accurately predicted … because it is predictable) and have it be accurate. It is you that is failing to accurately represent the love and hope of Christ, to the profound demise of many. You and I will stand before God one day … and our good intentions won’t change the facts or the truth, we will be responsible for what we taught according to the Word, not the culture, or the desires of this group or that.

          • Bill_Wall

            What is behind the anti-gay vitriol is not an adherence to “absolute truth”, it is a blind departure from truth. When Christians can finally understand what sin really is, then there will be hope. In the meantime, there is nothing in heterosexual prejudice against homosexuality that has any resemblance to truth, let alone love. Homophobia blinds wide swaths of people to the truth.

            It doesn’t require reading many posts here to see that there is little of Christ being offered here. The essence of Christ brings liberty from having to sit in God’s place and condemn innocent and harmless people. Legalism by the self-righteous supplants God himself and causes wound upon wound.

            The fundamentalist position is spiritual abuse, nothing less.

          • Amos8

            Again, you pervert telling people the truth into “anti-gay vitriol” and “hate” and … that alone proves where your thinking comes from, and the current and future refusal to change (and your avoidance of what I and others have said).

            Playing those cards may have convinced you (and many others) of the errors you know believe … and that your vitriol and attacks and hate against those who attempt to help others with the truth of Scripture … is “loving” and “defending” victims, but falling for and spreading deceit and error, and therefore true hate, is what you have, ironically and hypocritically, are doing, and yet because you bought into easy-to-discern error … and have based it on emotions and feelings and wants and not the truth… it is highly unlikely you will come out that error and destruction of others.

          • Bill_Wall

            Nice little twist. You must have had a lot of practice at it! Now that you feel under attack and condemnation, you should be able to empathize with those who you do attack and condemn. Or not.

            Bottom line is this: fundamentalists say “there is a rule in the bible against gay marriage and that is the truth!”

            No, it is not the truth.

          • Amos8

            Just about everything you have state in all of this is, intentionally or not, a distortion. That is why truth matters so much, and why an objective unchanging source (as oppose to feelings-based and culture based sources) are so vital to our lives, love, truth, God, etc. Your source(s) are not only different, they are antithetical.

            With your approach and standard … not to mention the twisting and distortions … then those at Pentecost would have responded to the presentation of their sins with “Why do you hate us? You are just a bunch of Pharisaical haters and ‘sin-ophobes.’ You are just full of hate!” Instead, they were “cut to the heart” and responded with great desire to deal with their sin in the right way. They were loved enough by Peter to hear the truth, and they responded beautifully to the truth about their sin—which we all have, but not all hear the truth, if you know what I mean.

            The response to Stephen is a perfect example, they responded to the truth of their sin with true hate, they hated the truth, and so they hated Stephen and then killed him. People respond to truth differently (notice Stephen’s faithfulness and accuracy to the written Word, not the man-made rules of the Pharisees and leaders … and notice how so many today are not only making up their new “rules” or “truths” but, ironically, they are condemning others as “Pharisees!”). So no matter hard you try, you are always losing this… again, your great concern or compassion means nothing if you are in error, so please don’t think you concern = love. It does not.

          • Bill_Wall

            The standard is Christ and Christ only. Jesus does not spill out the antichrist hatred that comes from holiness people who claim biblical superiority.

            That’s why homophobia and gay hatred cannot and will not stand. I know nothing about Rob Bell but he is right, the time has come to turn the lights on folks see the truth.

            We have come a long way in overcoming biblically supported Christian self-righteousness:

            1.Burning heretics at the stake.
            3.Inferiority of women
            4.Killing witches
            5.Killing adulterers
            6.Beating children for discipline

            Yep. All biblically supported. God’s Word. Yet we have overcome all of the above in spite of the dismay of a few extremists.

            Now let’s start to repair the damages that come from a supposedly biblically supported homophobia.

          • Amos8

            Do you think that adding even more distortions will clear things up? You portend to be against hurting people with untruths and flat out lies, so maybe if you start there with your falsehoods and mischaracterizations and demonization of others (which, ostensibly you are “against”) then we can communicate on a reasoned level. You are flagrantly doing what you say you are against, and what you are (falsely) condemning others for doing, and you won’t admit it (even though you know it to be true).

          • Bill_Wall

            A “reasoned” discussion can only occur when emotions are not at the forefront. Your last post flails away with emotion and no reason whatsoever. I am fine with accusations but they must be backed up with fact and reason, not unsubstantiated rhetoric.

            Not only as Christians, but as human beings we must let go of condemning people to hell. Let God do his work. What consenting adults do in private should be subject to the scrutiny of God, not you or anyone else. You may position yourself as heroic in warning people away from “sin” but you would do a better service to mankind to use secular criminal law as your guide to sin……..your use of the bible as a guide to sin is appalling on the subject of homosexuality.

          • zuma

            Hey bill you talking trash and i can see you have never read the bible once in your life because if you do you will know the real meaning of sin and the consequences, its obviously clear that you are not for Christ, your mission is to lure people to hell by twisting the word of God (which no man has the right to do)

            My advice for you is to give your life to christ and have eternal life.

          • Bill_Wall

            I can see you are not very perceptive. You should check your beliefs to see if they line up with Christ. Somehow, I doubt it.

  • Tony

    “There’s no doubt, we need to address the issue of same-sex marriage. In fact, we need to approach the whole LGBT movement in a way that communicates our love for all people and the truth of the Word of God at the same time. However, for me, the ship has not sailed. ”
    -I agree with this statement 100%. However, it would help immensely if: 1) The church actually conveyed the love of Christ for all, 2) the church stripped away the ignorance they have of the issue of homosexuality (there are still ]some who believe that homosexuals are child molesters), 3) If we were not so focused on the political aspects of this issue and 4) If we honestly looked at scripture rather than proof-text (for example, the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, this was a case of gang rape. Applying Genesis 19 to Homosexuality today is in no way parallel)

  • Bill_Wall

    The problem with the fundamentalists and conservative evangelicals is that they don’t understand the bible on the issue of homosexuality. Even today, most refuse educate themselves on the issue.

    When the bible was written, it was written with the understanding that same sex activity was a matter of perverted heterosexuals engaging in it. There were no “homosexuals” per se, only perverted heterosexuals and many ignorant people in the 21st century still try to advance that view.

    It is time for people to open their eyes and quit blaming their hatred and prejudice on God. Become true Christians who are living the essence of Christianity: compassion and charity.


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