11 Ways Leaders Wreck Their Churches

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How much potential impact is being wasted or destroyed because leaders aren’t leading effectively?

The problem with ineffectivess and sin is it’s so much easier to spot in other people than it is to see within ourselves.

Chances are, you’ve got some theories on why the leader down the road is struggling in their church.

Or why the latest megachurch icon cheated and fell.

But what about you?

Progress really starts when you and I look in the mirror and ask the hard questions.

So What Might You Be Destroying?

So what might you be doing that’s destroying the ministry you’re leading, the people you’re leading, the cause you believe in?

OK, destroying is a loaded word.

I realize that for the most part, nobody means to harm or destroy others. And most of us might not fail catastrophically in that sense.

But what if by ignoring common leadership pitfalls, you destroy the potential of your ministry?

In fact, that’s a likely explanation of what is happening in many churches.

Think about it. In most churches, things aren’t collapsing wildly, they’re just not advancing. Or if they are advancing, they’re still not reaching their potential.

How much potential impact is being wasted or destroyed because leaders aren’t leading effectively?

11 Subtle or Not-So-Subtle Ways to Destroy Your Ministry.

Here are 11 ways I’ve noticed in which leaders sabotage their ministry. I’m personally working to address each of these daily in my own life and leadership.

Why? Because most of us never intend to destroy anything. But sometimes we do anyway. Here’s how:

1. Caring more about your personal success than the success of others and the mission.

The battle against sin is a battle against self. If you don’t check your ego, it will check you.

Godly leadership means caring about the mission more than you care about your personal success, and desiring to see others flourish. Leaders who forget that destroy their potential and the potential of their mission.

Carey Nieuwhof Carey Nieuwhof is Lead Pastor of Connexus Church north of Toronto, Canada, blogs at www.careynieuwhof.com and is host of The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast available for free on iTunes.

More from Carey Nieuwhof or visit Carey at http://careynieuwhof.com

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  • Why the contradiction?

    I a previous article on this site we were told not to call ourselves “Lead Pastor”. because it is arrogant. :-/

    • BillLion

      Many different voices here have many different opinions. Lead pastor was a term adopted because some thought Senior Pastor was arrogant. At that time I shifted to “lead”, but I’m done chasing around the latest fads AKA acceptable terminology. Reflection is good, but too much navel-gazing can quickly get us sweating the small stuff.

  • Geoff Warder

    This is great stuff!
    I was reading it and seriously thot, “this sounds like something Carey Nieuwhof would write!”

  • Rudy Schellekens

    One simple solution: leave the pastor system behind, and let the elders fulfill their biblical roles. There is no such model as a
    “Pastor” on charge of “his” church.
    There are no lead pastors, senior pastors to be found in the bible.

    • Obedianttodeath

      What were all the Rabbis role in there Churches if not Pastor? Also why was Peter the first to lead a sermon? God has always used Leaders or Pastors to guide his flock. What “title” would you place on Moses? Order is found throughout the bible , the issue today is people want the title more than the calling. We have leaders who should not be leading, Pastors in it for their glory or the money. When we follow Gods will, truly follow the Curch benefits. Just look at Paul and his affect on the world. Yes in today’s church we would have called him Pastor Paul!

      • Rudy Schellekens

        Let’s look at the Bible, how’s that?
        Acts 14:23 – they (Paul and Barnabas) appointed elders in each church
        Acts 15:2 – went to Jerusalem to see the apostles and the elders
        Acts 20:17 – Paul sent for the elders from Ephesus
        Titus 1:5 – Titus left to appoint elders in every town
        James 5:14 – when someone is sick, let him call the elders of the church

        Are just a few of the passages relating to elders, their appointment – more important, the plurality of elders.

        It was not until the 3rd of 4th century that it became a single elder in charge of a church (Which of course turned into the Pastor of all Pastors)
        What I find interesting is that authors like Alex Strauch, who was a firm believer and supporter of the single pastor system writes a book – describing his change of heart, and theology!

        Within the pages of the New Testament (And I prefer to work from the New Testament since we are not Jews, living under the 10 commandments) we do not find the role of THE pastor, as the leader of the church. And I happen to believe that when the Bible speaks of pluralities of elders, and when I can trace the changes through the pages of history, the words of the Bible are carrying much more weight then the changes made in history by uninspired people.

      • Rudy Schellekens

        Pastor Paul?? Yes, that may be how some in today’s church would refer to him. But surely that does not make it right??
        Strange that Paul was never referred to as such, neither by himself or any other writer in the New Testament.. Where as Peter was one of the elders/shepherds/overseers.

        He was an apostle, and that is not a synonym for shepherd/elder/overseer.

        The plurality of elders as the overseers, shepherds would avoid any issues with one man being carried away by his own greatness. Note: One of the qualifications of an elder? “He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil”

        It is the elders’ job to oversee, lead and feed the flock. It is the elders’ responsibility to keep the doctrine pure.

        • Mark

          And who here has seen elders lead and feed the flock? Most elders are a corporate board that listen to no one but their friends and/or big donors. How are they to keep the doctrine pure? By squelching dissent? By refusing to answer questions? By condemning people to hell for having differing opinions?

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Your idea of elders is interesting. I am sorry that is the only example you are familiar with as far as how elders act.
            One reason these views develop? By not placing elders in the biblical role they have been given!
            Paul’s charge to the Ephesian elders – Feed the flock, watch out for false teachers.
            One of the qualities of elders? Able to teach…
            Condemning people to hell? Last I read, that is God’s job, and not the job of elders/overseers/shepherds.
            Doctrine is kept pure by “holding the faith, once for all delivered…” That means: Forget where history has brought us, let’s go back to the bible, and follow that model…

          • Mark

            I think go it as more tragedy than interesting. How many elders do you know who can teach? And by that I mean make a cognizant argument and get the point across while dealing with other opinions that might be present. Also, terms for elders would help significantly.

          • Rudy Schellekens

            Out of the five elders here? Five. The public teaching in the congregation is shared between 5 different men, 2 of whom are elders. Other elders teach different classes at different times.
            The deacons do the day-to-day stuff. The material things, would be a good descriptor.
            Some of the deacons also teach and speak on a regular basis. Our elders keep an eye/ear out, and will not hesitate to call someone to account.
            And yes, in a number of situations men elected as elders are elected because of their experience in business and management. That does not make it right.

          • David Dean

            What does this mean???

            ‘Our elders keep an eye/ear out, and will not hesitate to call someone to account.’

          • Rudy Schellekens

            As elders they take their role seriously. Since they are the ones responsible for the feeding of the flock (Must mean spiritual food!) they listen to what the different speakers/teachers present.
            As a congregation, we believe in a number of non-negotiables, such as the inspiration of the Biblical text.
            Some time ago, we worked through an interesting concept. Is David inspired (God-breathed) when he wrote Psalms, or was he speaking from his heart, and God’s role is in making sure that the words were recorded correctly for us to hear?

            So, when David utters the words, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” was this prophecy or a direct exclamation from the heart of David?

            Then, when Jesus uttered these same words, were they a prophetic quote, or, as with David, a cry from utter despair?

            The elders had a viewpoint, and I had a viewpoint. Together we worked through this. The elders fulfilled their role as elders, I fulfilled my role as both a teacher and a member who is in subjection to his elders.

      • Rudy Schellekens

        Peter’s sermon in Acts 2 was:
        a) not to the church
        b) evangelism (and one does not need a special title to do that}
        c) no indication that he had any more authority than any of the other apostles
        d) No expression of a leadership role
        Why would I need to place a title on Moses?
        And what lack of order would there be with a church lead by a plurality of elders/shepherds/overseers??
        Rabbis were not leaders, they were (sometimes itinerant) teachers. Synagogues were led by elders, not by rabbis…

      • what

        Same title as Hebrews puts on him. the antitype for the apostle.

  • Rudy Schellekens

    And yes, I have read the New Testament letters and epistles. Apart from that, I have also taken the time to read my church history, which gives a pretty interesting overview of the change from plurality of elders to single pastor system.
    recommended reading: Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola (Through BARNA), and Alex Strauch’s books on eldership. Apart from those, if your really want to research, read Schaff’s books on church history.
    Or, do some word studies on the terms used (TDNT would be a good help with that).

  • Rachel Stocker Allen

    thank you so much for writing this article, your insights are hitting me right where it hurts, and THAT is always a good thing :) bless you, brother.

  • Curtis Prunty

    Well said!

  • Obedianttodeath

    Interesting you are saddened… Translations have been an issue forever. Read my post in “today’s American church” we wouls wantto have called him Pastor.

  • Rudy Schellekens

    Translations really have no impact here. Pastor is just one way to translate the word POMEIN. Shepherd would work just as well.

  • David D

    No. There’s no translation error at play here lol.

    I know what you said. However in today’s American church Paul would be labeled a trouble maker & a rebel.

  • David

    Agreed

  • hmmm

    Regardless of how you translate it the usage comes out God doesn’t change the order He set in Corinthians nor did Christ change the purpose for the gifts He gave to the body apostle used 80 times prophet and teacher over 100 evangelist around 5 and pastor less than 5 even if translated as shepard as the usage is the majority of the time in regards to Jesus. So feel free to study any of this out. That being said The church is structured quite different than the new testament reveals. However I often wonder for those who presume to teach they must give account for those under them in the manner some teach if they realize they are going to stand before Jesus and give account for people most of them never knew and had no clue about,

  • Rudy Schellekens

    Mom. Guess acts 20 has not made it to your bible reading schedule.

  • schellekensr

    And those ministries are found – where? I can guarantee you that this language s not found in the Bible.
    And no, PRESBUTEROS does NOT refer to ALL the spiritual leaders together.
    And PRESBUTEROS is definitely not a synonym for the word DIAKONOI!
    That these are different is easily seen in Paul’s greeting to the church in Philippi – to the elders AND deacons. If that is not enough, you can also check 1 Timothy 3, where they follow the discription of requirements for elders.
    Note the distict absence of “apt to teach” as a qualification for deacons.
    I am kind of flabbergasted that you keep talking about “real” food vs. spiritual food. As good help to understand this difference read Acts 6 (Discussion re. physical need of Greek widows) and Hebrews 51-9, where the author used “real” food names, but definitely not using “real food” issues – their lack of growth.
    So, I have shown that a) ELDERS (PRESBUTEROI) anddeacons (DIAKONOI) are never referring to the same kind of people and b) that “real food” language is often used as a metaphor for spiritual food.
    Now it is your turn to show where the distinction is made between “Ministry gifts” and “Supportive ministry.

  • schellekensr

    Try Hebrews 13… Submit to those who…
    Dependency of the flock on the shepherd… Now, I understand I am a city slicker, but farmers and I read the same Bible. And the whole Bible (Old and new) speeks of the responsibility of shepherds. So much so, in fact, that “shepherds” who do not take of their people will be held accountable by God for the bad job they have done.
    Does each believer have a personal responsibilty to grow spiritually? Of course they do! But there is also the responsibility of the elders.

  • schellekensr

    First, I am not “Dude…”
    Next, using my Greek concordance, I have looked up all the places where it speeks of elders. NOWHERE is it used to refers to ALL spiritual leaders. Show me one passage where it does,
    Next, there is no transliteration anywhere for the word “elders.”
    Following that, elders in the OT had no religious authority (Show me one passage where it says they do).
    Fourth, the word “evangelist” is used only once, and it is an ittenerant worker, not at the local congregation.
    Fifth, show me where “elders” refer specifically (your word, not mine) is used for deacons, with the responsibility to support the ministry of the apostles, pastors and elders.

  • Michael Hale

    Rom 13.1 invalidates your argument that “NOWHERE does Scripture say we are SUBMIT to MEN”. Unless of course “be subject” is not in the same ball park as “submit”

  • schellekensr

    NOWHERE does Scripture say we have to submit to men…
    Really?
    I guess EPhesians 5 has not been on your daily reading schedule, either…
    Submit to one another…

  • Obedianttodeath

    That is the trouble with the American Church… We do not like people who truly preach Jesus! The focus is all wrong here! Get off the computer and reach the lost. Get up and help the poor!

  • what !

    Remember the job of the fivefold ministry is to equip and mature the saints ? John 12:27 is referring to that remember eph pauls prayer. 1Pe 2:2 1Cr 3:2 Hbr 5:13 Hbr 5:12 here he seems to be rebuking those with a ministry call ( I might add there seems to be a lot of professing leaders who don’t understand the six foundational doctrines now.. especially repentance and judgment as it pertains to some of the hard things paul spoke about. Acts 20
    Paul did exhort Christians hence paul also wrote to titus as a master builder Tts 2:15 and 2Ti 4:2 and just so you know Tts 2:12 teaching is a mistranslation it is the greek Word for chastening. Now we see administrations at work under Gods direction Paul is doing what God wants done and advising leaders and layman as referenced above. God gave gifts to the body He orders them in cor. and Christ gave gifts to the body for the equipping and maturing of the saints all are to be under the government of the Holy Spirit. Remember moses lists in Hebrews as the old testament antitype to Jesus the chief apostle. Now we get into a warning in the new testament that comes from the old.baalam was guilty of rebellion Jud 1:11 so when we look back into the old testament we see God had the gift of administrations working mose then when it came time for aaron the levitical priests in charge of the people did not like God picking aaron. They where priests and of the chosen priesthood when and if you study this out go back to the previous chapter. Some said can we not here from god (summary) it was never recorded they did not. What they did not like is the chosen administration by which God set leaders amongst the people. they viewed aaron as having more authority. which is true but up to God. hence Moses goes to God and God intervenes. Now when Jesus ascends we see Mat 17:3 here we have the antitype apostle and a prophet with the chief cornerstone Jesus Christ this continues every generation as ref in eph and cor as one church understanding Luk 11:49 although the jews where charged with their death we see from eph and cor God is still bringing them forth every generation until Jesus comes. as such later we read about God setting order and Christ giving gifts. hence administration and function as gifts of God of for equipping and maturing the saints. The ultimate goal bringing all to spiritual maturity and therebye constantly expanding the kingdom until Jesus comes.

  • addendum

    Of note later in dereck princes life he taught the elders where the five ministry gifts of God and Christ to the body all others fell under helps as every joint supplying a need deacons desiring to be helps in church are not ministry gifts God created and gave to the body as with any position left to man to designate difference being God created ministry gifts. They have two choices fulfill their purpose for creation or rebel. as Jesus Christ is the head God set the order of offices and Christ gave gifts to the Body. First and formost priority of all grow saints to maturity the rest of the teaching I have accumulated. is far to detailed to list here

  • oops forgot

    All ministry gifts that have reached the position of Sons as sons are led of the Spirit. whuch also would include a certain level of knowledge according to the office. ref heb and rev just to name several.

  • David D

    Some might fall for this ‘We need to preach Jesus’ bit? But not me. It was Paul who said Study to show yourself approved. When ‘We need to preach Jesus’ trumps that? It isn’t the gospel you’re defending. It’s your own lazy ignorance you’re defending.

  • Michael Hale

    Your heart’s choice of words hints of an arrogance that is unbecoming in one so “knowledgeable”… “I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ ” (Luk 18:12 NKJV)

  • hmm

    Ephesians 5:21-6:4 KJV – Submitting yourselves one to another …

  • hmm

    Argue with God city slicker God set the order of the offices do you honour it or refuse it.

  • hmm

    The rebellion of korah as one antitype listed in Hebrews and mentioned again in jude. Welcome to new testament reality wake up seek God and stop propetuating the traditions of men. The church ran in new testament order until around the third century. Feel free to study it out.

  • hmm

    All are to be apt to teach not many are to desire to become teachers. Deacons are appointed among men by men as seen in acts. As clarks commentary states it is neither pleasing to God or us that we should leave ministering to God or the Word to serve tables. Gifts of helps (People where to choose) ministry gifts have two choices God set the order in Corinthians Christ gave gifts to the body obey or rebel they are created to be ministry gifts. See the difference. To desire to become a ministry gift is a desire God will not approve unless God and Christ made you to be that. To be a deacon ect. is to be appointed of men

  • schellekensr

    What an interesting comment! Seems so far, I have stuck to Scripture – where we do not find the role of the Pastor as it is in use in many places today. A plurality of elders/shapherds/overseers in local congregations is both a Biblical and historical situation.
    As mentioned before, one can trace the role of the single Pastor system as a very, very late development in Church history – meaning that: If it was good for the early church, surely it is good for us today!
    Not only that, but it would certainly prevent some of the abuses as have been mentioned in this string of conversation.
    SO, do we want to go back to a Biblical example, or a man-made role??

  • Study it out it takes awhile

    The biblical example stated God set 1st Apostles Secon Prophets and Thirdly teachers. Pretty clear as Paul sets the model for a new testament church in 1st and 2nd Corinthians. To say contrary is to argue with God. Christ gave gifts to the Body all are of value as every joint supplies a need. Also odf not as the ministry gifts coordinated and worked together it is obvious especially in the original language text and usage one man may hold more than one ministry gift. Indeed when studied out many did. I know it’s old testament but God said I am I change not. Summary. Look moses was the antitype listed in Hebrews to the Apostle and Highpriest of our confession. We see in Jude a warning concerning the rebellion of korah this is where the priests of the old testament did not like God establishing varied authoritative administrations amongst the Israelites, Study it out they where preists antitype ministry gifts. now take the 80+ scriptures for Apostle set them aside and understand the usage and context of them. Take the 100 plus scriptures apiece for prophet and teacher study each set in text see Gods usage then take the around 5 times evangelist is used study it’s text understand God usage regardless of how you translate the greek word for pastor. See how many times it is used in regards to men. see Gods usage, Then go back over all of them look at how God commanded their interaction remembering how He used each and then find out how many of those men held more than one ministry gift in the usage. Realize that Jesus Christ is coming for a church free of Spot or blemish and the dat He comes there will be a people led of the Spirit according to scriptural order and Jesus will see to it. Because before He comes He will lose angels to gather out of His kingdom all those that offend. Leaving nothing left but a pure bride waiting.

  • Study it out it takes awhile

    Actually sir I may well have misunderstood you comment. While pastor is one of the fivefold ministry. As we see it today is far far from scriptural analysis the majority of the time I have seen it. God set the order apostle Pophet Teacher these three are required as Paul sets up a new testament church. Now just for the sake of conversation this would be my observation. Many say they acknowledge them some do many do not support them. Many do not submit to one another as unto the Lord. Even those who do acknowledge them do not allow them to take part in leading their church when in effect Paul stated the only ministry gift comparable to a masterbuilder is an apostle. and while one man may have more than one ministry gift. The pastoral gift is not an apostle and quite truthfully unless they have one of the three in which God sets the order. By no means do I think they ought to be leading a church unless they are taking part closely in seeking the Lord and the means and input of the other gifts.

  • schellekensr

    “spirit filled teachers…” Of course, that’s what I miss! I guess that the Bible is written in a secret language that can only be understood by those special people… Rather than by every believer whio has recieved God’s Spirit as a deposit of an inheritance to come…
    Show me where:
    a) Paul is referred to as Pastor
    b) SINGLE men are appointed to shepherd congregations
    c) Elders, shepherds and overseers are different responsibilities
    And of course, the really fun part:
    Deacons are appointed by men
    How about elders/shepherds/overseers? Who appoints them?
    Those who WANT to be overseers, desire… Not a word about being spirit-lead, but a straight forward statement: Those who desire to be…
    The qualifications are laid out… And meeting those (Note: Not a word about Spirit filled!)…
    It’s those kind of additions to the Biblical text that brought us to where we are today.

  • schellekensr

    As I said: There is not a transliteration for the word ELDERS! A transliteration would be finding these letters (E L D E R S ) as a Greek word. You might want to recheck your definition of “Transliteration.”

  • schellekensr

    Actually, I do not see these described as “ministries…” I see them described as what God has given to the CHURCH. Not that these descriptions are personal gifts to believers, but that the ROLES are given to the CHURCH.
    Note the absence of the word PASTOR, by the way…

  • schellekensr

    Actually, should you really want to do a study, how about using a REAL Greek Word study, like Theological Dictionary of the Greek New Testament, and look at each of the three terms you used. They (And Gill) will tell you that these are referring to the SAME person, with different FACETS of the role they fulfill, not three DIFFERENT people…

    But then, I have been “indoctrinated and assimilated into a cult.”

    (Cult: A great devotion to a person…) Hm, Pastors, maybe???

  • hmmm

    These are ministry offices given to the Body for the equipping and maturing of the saints every joint supplying a need or was supposed to anyway. Here in lies the problem Pastor is the least mention not in the three God set order to and seems to be trying to do the job of all even to the extent of supporting and acknowledging none. Yet even preaching submission doctrines they themselves are not honoring.Everyone is of value but The order God set and the example of Paul building a church from groundup in line with eph 4 is seems to be far from biblical. As a matter of fact if Israel is our example.Jeremiah 5:31 Thes two seem to go hand in hand jeramiah 23 and Isaiah 30 niv vrs 8-11 becomes an acceptable sin in the new testament in many churches do to these two things negleceted not honoured and a refusal to disceren the body and let the Holy Spirit move.1 cor.14:37 and 1 Thessalonians 5:19-20 Which has become the norm in many churches many even unbelieving that 1:14 is not only a command but that God still does such things.Really to be honest regardless of what ministry gift is running the house to neglect 1 cor 1:14 is in part a failure to discerent he body equip and mature the saints as all may prophecy and God gives gifts severally as He wills these 9 gifts are for the body and can be strong evangelism tools.

  • come on sir

    Dear Lord read your bible. Paul was a prophet/teacher and when the Holy Spirit said separate me Paul, Paul became AN APOSTLES. IT WOULD BE NICE TO AGREE WITH PAUL HERE WOULDN’T IT 1Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. The American language put and in their. so to be accurate there where Prophet Teachers Saul name was changed to Paul hence 1Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.…The Apostle is the only master builder every generation God Gives gifts to the Body just as Christ gave gifts to the Body. God ordered them hence they where to cooperate as the Holy Spirit directs and the Word states.

  • schellekensr

    i did study out… Using my BIBLE and my Dictionary and my Greek Word studies….

  • patience grasshopper

    Ha Ha I hope you saw the movie !
    It’s very hard to teach submit one to another as unto the Lord if one is not led of the Spirit because at least for me I am assuming that Christians are. I guess I never understood it either until I rounded up all the scripture concerning children and sons. Believe it or not your posts are encouraging thank you for that.
    I don’t think He gets the whole submitting one to another as unto the Lord in the fear of the Lord being led of the Spirit..and discerning the body thing. Anyway to disceren the body and rightly divide the Word is a mark of Sonship. We all grow at different levels. That being said I liked the way Kenneth hagin testified. God disciplined Him for not rebuking ministers and layman and warned him about continuing in that manner same thing with ed dufrense and art katz. All saw closed churches early death of ministers and candlesticks removed from churches and pastors backsliding all the way out of ministry. It just was a product of not discerning God by discerning the prophet God sent. Which to me would imply attention to the Holy Spirit of extreme importance as any minister.
    In both Kenneth Hagins books and ed dufreneses books they hated to even talk about it. It would be years later I ran across art katz by the time He hit his seventies He would just plain warn. he’s got around a 20 some minute message called prophetic communication on His website. It is important to discern God in discerning the Body. Man does He testify to having to warn pastor after pastor of the possibility of eternal judgment at Gods prompting.. Falls right into line with howard carter ed dufrense and Dwight Pentecost too I was shocked to see all these testimonies from prophets to the judgment that followed by failing to disceren God and the one He sent. I have never found such fearful testimonies from any other office except possibly the writings of paul.
    That being said 1Cr 12:5And G2532 there are G1526 differences G1243 of administrations, G1248 but G2532 the same G846 Lord. G2962 God has given varied measure of authority according to purpose and assignment. It seems from the testimonies of the prophets and Apostles mentioned above. It is important to discren them when god sends them that way. Some did not and refused direction and correction. they all saw death disbanded churches and backslidden ministers and total loss of anointing concerning the minister or the entire church. There books are extremely helpful. To me it all just boils down to accepting God delights to using foolish things to confound the wise and only puts up with rebellion against the Holy Spirit involving His people and leaders for so long. The man just seems to be a created and destined delivery message according to Gods purpose.

  • schellekensr

    Of course every seminary will tell me the same thing: The deliver Pastors into the Pastor system… Duh…
    I would prefer to let the Bible speak for itself, rather than schools which exist to produce what people have decided they want…

  • schellekensr

    PRESBYTER, BAPTISM are transliterated words. ELDER is a TRANSLATED word. You may need to get a refresher…

  • schellekensr

    I am sorry that you feel the need to start using expressions like the above.

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