Rob Bell and Andrew Wilson Debate Homosexuality and the Bible

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Andrew Wilson debates Rob Bell on same-sex marriage, how to interpret Scriptures regarding homosexuality, and what culture has to do with it.

What are your thoughts? How should the church approach the issue of same-sex relationships? Is there a way to be biblically accurate and filled with grace towards those in same-sex relationships today? 

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  • Lily

    Truth be told, we as humans cannot define the standards of holiness, righteousness or sin. God has already defined that in His word. Following Jesus is hard and people can choose not to follow Christ if it is hard to pay the price. It has always been free will from the onset and I don’t think God will be taking anti-depressants because people have chosen not to follow Him. When He gives free will I believe He literally means He has given free will yet He hopes and desires we will choose Christ. We can’t sit in the fence because even in Revelation, we see the lukewarm, and God says how I wish you were either hot or cold. But now that you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth. We need to be true to the people and be authentic to the world. We cannot just say what itchy ears want to hear in order to woo people to God. Just say the truth and the truth will set people free. We have to stand with one truth, God does not and will not approve Homosexuality. If the community wants to approve that and think God is with them, I think it’s hiding in rebellion.

  • Guest

    That was epic!!! SOooooo good! I love the dialogue! In recent times I got told Rob Bell is a false teacher and I believed it (Still gotta look into what he says on getting into heaven). I now have so much respect for him after listening to this.

    This is such a biblically focused, loving, thoughtful, poignant conversation! I love Andrew’s conclusion and I love Rob’s summary of the issue too.

    Is anyone brave enough to share this video? I’m pondering it, but I’m a bit worried people will accuse me of promoting anti-christian beliefs. After some prayer we will see…

    • Guest

      On a different note, I am very concerned with Bell’s idea of hell.

    • Andy

      No one should accuse you of bring anti Christian because this video makes Mr Wilson look like a genius and Mr Bell a fool.

  • Guest

    I’m actually quite concerned about Bell’s teaching on hell. If his teaching on hell is so off then I am worried about thinking Bell might have a point in this homosexuality talk.

  • Bledi

    He jumped around the questions and didn’t admit if the Bible allowed for it or not. His basic train of thought “culture has changed” seemingly to imply that homosexuality is a cultural issues not a biblical one.

    • Guest

      I think you won’t get a clear answer out of him because I think part of Bell’s point is that the Bible isn’t clear on the issue.

      • Andy

        Unfortunately for Mr Bell, the bible IS clear on this subject.

        • Guest

          According to our current translation it is. which verses do you refer to? I’m not saying its definitely not clear, but I’m saying my understanding of context and original language is not clear enough to make a call that I can definitively say that it is or isn’t clear.

  • Josh

    I’m terribly sad to see Mr. Bell running with this thought process. He blatantly ignores scripture and rarely acknowledges the teachings of Scripture to prove his point, rather relies on what he has experienced. Andrews argument is much more thought out, and is based on not his own opinions, rather the tried and true teachings of the church for the last 2000 years and beyond. Andrews argument is in no way “gay bashing”, just offered with a Christian Worldview.

  • Charles Crossman

    I couldn’t watch the whole thing, frustrating….Rob Bell is cluuuuuless…so he conforms to the world????? “gay sex is normal, God-ordained, and there is no hell”…what’s next with this guy….

  • Andy

    Wow. Mr Bell has no basis whatsoever about his view. I can tell that he truly loves people, and would like to help people. In his effort to help, he is going to hurt many people. He has no clear answers for anything that he believes on this issue and seems to be flying by the seat of his pants. If he wants to debate an issue he needs to get his facts straight and at least attempt to use some scripture to back up his claims. Mr Wilson has much stronger answers that are based in scripture and in love. A very strong discussion from his side. This debate hands down goes to Mr Wilson.

    • mkdb

      In the liberal/emergent church view it is “Culture over Scripture.” That is his basis. Feelings are supreme! Feelings and “caring” trump truth. Therefore, in his/their mind, they are not overly concerned with what the Bible says (although it may have some validity for some of them).

  • http://twitter.com/RevTChristian Rev. Terry Christian

    Obviously, Andrew knew his material better than the other one. Jesus said- “when you know the truth the makes you free” and that really shows itself with Andrew. I’ve never heard a more peaceful loving representation of this controversy than I have from him. His comments about the new life in Christ (born again) as a new creation – putting off the old- was the best / calming description of leaving the past-self behind that I have ever heard, especially pertaining to this subject matter. (homosexuality)
    God Bless you Andrew in all you do!

  • Glyn Chapman

    I agree with Andrew Wilson; we cannot allow the pattern of the world, of this age, to shape our theology. We need renewed thinking based on the word of God and not allow conformation to take it’s place. This does not mean we are homophobic any more than being concerned about immigration makes you a racist! As God loves everyone so must we and as Jesus challenged sin with the call to repentance so also must we with the compassion of our God. We all have sinned and have fallen short of Gods standard, along way short, but we must learn what it means to carry our cross, leaving what lies behind and pressing forward in the new clothes that God so mercifully gives us.

  • James

    Andy: if you think the Bible is easy to understand on this issue (or almost any issue) you are delusional. Jesus had nothing to say on this. There are about half a dozen verses that condemn homosexual activity, but there is great debate about those texts. Perhaps they refer to lustful or promiscuous gay sex, and have nothing to say about faithful committed gay relationships. Maybe. And just maybe – just maybe David and Jonathan were bi. (maybe not… but their relationship sure is described strangely in various texts. Mind you, even if they were, it does not necessarily mean it is acceptable, any more than David being a warrior, or David being a polygamist.)

    But honestly, anyone who says “the Bible is crystal clear on this or that…” is nearly always wrong, and simply shows they don’t know the complexities of the issue, or the other texts that cloud their simplistic view. eg: the Bible is crystal clear on… divorce ! (Not! Moses permits it, Jesus seems to forbid it except for adultery, Paul permits it for non-Christian partners, Ezra commanded it of cross cultural marriages, Malachi says God hates it…. hmmm… easy to work out? eg: slavery: the Bible seems to permit it, slaves are a blessing from God in some OT passages, Paul hints that Philemon should free the runaway slave, but he tells other slaves to work hard for their masters… eg: marriage: polygamy is tolerated, David was a polygamist, so was Abraham; OT brothers married their dead brothers wife to have a child for the older sibling; Isaac just shacked up with his “wife” – no ceremony; Paul encourages not getting married as the better way… eg: can women be preachers and leaders in the church?… plenty of verses each way on the surface…

    and the list goes on and on…

    You think the bible is easy to understand? all that tells me is that you have a view, it seems to be supported by a cursory reading of some texts and so you let it sit there.

    • Tyler Mase

      After several years of Greek and Hebrew, I can absolutely say that anything regarding morality and sexuality is not the slightest bit complicated. Given the clearest possible meaning of the words in these passages, it is absolutely undeniable that homosexuality is wrong. It’s as clear as “thou shalt not steal.”
      Anyone who says otherwise is not educated or lying.

    • Peaches

      Jesus didn’t leave us as orphan but sent us the Holy Spirit to dwell within us to help to understand the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth and He will lead us into all truths. As we walk with Christ all things will become clearer. The Word of God is Spirit. In order to understand it, you must be born of the Spirit. And, I would say spending time in prayer and worship would definitely lead us into all truths.

  • Keith

    The bottom line here is: repent of your sins Rob Bell or you will go to Hell when you pass from this life.

  • revgazza

    Rob Bell is a heretic purely and simply put. Hey Rob what other lifestyles and sins should the church now say is OK just because “the world” says it is OK.

    • Maxwell Owen Brent- Harris

      well said!!!

    • Jeremy Cosco

      Exactly. I love how he tries to confuse the issue at the end and say ‘why are we hung up on this one issue and not something like technology addiction?’ Umm, becuase the Bible is clear on the issue Rob. If you can explain away homosexual behaviour and say it is cultural or whatever, then you could do the same to “thou shall not murder”… Rob Bell has gone ‘Christian Crazy’.

  • Heterosexual

    Wow! We have certainly become a bunch of Pharisees and Sadducees, haven’t we! Is it a good thing that we have so completely ignored our Saviour’s attitudes and the principles of the 2nd greatest commandment and the golden rule?

    • Tyler Mase

      You should call yourself heterosexual heretic. Every thing we know and understand about God and the type of behavior to which we are called is given to us in the scriptures. The Golden Rule doesn’t not negate God’s commands regarding our bodies. It’s fairly well established in the psychological community that men are genetically predisposed to have many partners. Ok so let’s just do what want and say if it’s “genetic” it’s OK. Rob Bell fit’s the description of a heretic and so do you.
      2 Peter 2:1 (NKJV)
      2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

      • Paul James

        I don’t know, Tyler. I share your view on this matter as reflected in your threads, but I’m concerned about your harsh dismissal of ‘Heterosexual’s’ valid questions. I think that his are fair questions at face value. It is possible to maintain a clear biblical ethos on the matter of homosexuality and also balance it with a Christological pathos -modeling the ‘attitude’ (Heterosexual’s term) of how our Savior engaged the ‘sinners’ of His day. Jesus tended to reserve his harshest rhetoric against those with whom He agreed theologically (The Pharisees). We see no such attitude with ‘sinners’ – which is what confounded His critics. Love without truth is sentimentality (and therefore non-transformative). Truth without love is brutality (and therefore alienating and potentially divisive). Perhaps a better approach that engenders substantive dialogue is to withhold a wholesale dismissal of someone as a heretic until you’ve completely heard his/her views. I think that it is okay to explore issues through critical questions before rushing to our pre-packaged (‘right’) answers. When we rush to defend our theological positions we can tend to miss the deep nuances and layers of truth. Acknowledging ambiguity in our world is not necessarily a threat to one’s orthodoxy. i thought that Andrew Wilson did an excellent job in this respect. But I also support Bell’s intellectual integrity to question the classic biblical position on homosexuality. I just disagree with him.

  • denisepisaac

    Mr. Bell is really out of touch with God’s holiness and what Christianity really is. I say that because of his conversation as well and not just his point of view on the topic. He comfortably and openly cussed (BS) as if it is OK. Col. 3:8 and James 3:11 tells us to NOT do such but apparently because modern day people and entertainers do it, well its OK for CHRISTIANS. Too too many people have and DO name the name of CHRIST but REFUSES to depart from their iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19, Matt. 7:22-23). GOD WILL let us ALL know dead or alive who is right.

    • Peaches

      When he said BS, that was a clear sign that he was not walking totally with God. I would hate to sit in on one of his sermons. Boy!

      • denisepisaac

        AMEN! It is so so sad how they try to justify such ungodly behaviors. I would NOT want to even attend the service.

    • Jeremy Cosco

      Hi Denise, I was also shocked when he swore. If he can’t control his mouth in a setting like that it really reveals the state of his heart. What a sad, confused man…

    • amos8

      Cussing is cool, it is completely justified because it is a part of being “missional.”

      ["Missional is being set apart from "the" church in order to show the world we are not uptight, fuddy-duddies ... we're really just cool, authentic, relevant and accepting... so if we do this then the world will like us (and hate them) and then they will want to become 'Christ-followers' ... and NOT 'Christians." Got it? This is one key essence of the emerging church.]

      • denisepisaac

        This is the MOST ignorant thing that one can say, that cussing is COOL for Christ followers who are CHRISTIANS and this is why people or unbelievers do NOT believe. There is NO difference from the world and their ungodly behaviors. However, when anyone makes a comment on ANY site be bold enough to show your face. People who hide their identity tend to hide other important stuff/information. I’m done with people who reuses to let their light shine as CHRIST FOLLOWERS.

        • Algoria

          His comment was meant ironically.
          There are valid reasons for anonymity on the internet. For one thing there are some strange people out there capable of all sorts of weird behavior including making one’s life miserable through stalking.

  • Steve Miller

    The most disturbing thing for me was his comment when asked about the “truth” of his claims.

    “I think the more important question is ‘What does it look like once it’s lived out?'”

    That’s the most important question? Not what the Bible says?

  • JOE

    2 Cor 11:13-14
    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. What do “false apostles” look like?
    We are suppose to part ways!! 1 Cor 5:13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” 1 Cor 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,
    2 Thess 3:6 But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.
    2 Thess 3:14 And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.
    2 Tim 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
    When are we going to obey the gospel, no matter how many people are fedup with the “narrow” view of the church? What part of, “reject”; put away, withdraw, do not keep company, dont greet him…” STOP giving these people free airtime and help the devil to spread his lies – PLEASE :)

    • Peaches

      I totally agree with you. The people need to know the truth and not changing the word for the changing times. God’s word has always and will always be for present, future and forevermore. Everyone need to know the truth so they can live accordingly. The devil has got this pastor on lock down and spreading more lies and deception. He’s not getting in so why not take some more with him! That’s Satan’s work at his best. I pray God will destroy the works of the enemy and cause confusion in his camp. Remove His sheep from this pastor if he don’t have no intentions of turning around in Jesus’ Name! Amen1

  • Doug

    Wow! We are in trouble when “Christian” Leaders get to pick and choose what is sin and what is not sin. When we do that, we are trying to “impress” people about how great and open and loving we are. We should be trying to “influence” others on how great Jesus is!
    His Word is STILL relevant and still truthful. We cannot be ashamed or afraid to teach the entire truth of the His Word. Painful? At times yes. Honorable? Always. The erosion of our society can be (at least partly) blamed on “Chrisitan” leaders compromising on our teaching of God’s Word. We need to turn from our sins of wanting approval and seek God’s face once again and see His approval.

  • phil the reader

    Come on Bell, let your yes be yes and your no, no. No muddling around in contextual gobbledeegook.

  • mikesensei

    What I’m hearing is, “The world is broken and sinful, so we should affirm that.” Where is the redemption and hope in that attitude? Where is the Gospel?

  • Kelly Todd

    Bell never said yes or no when answering the question if homosexual sex was a sin.

    • Jm

      Not sure he believes in sin as the offence of a holy God, sin has been socially described as that which disturbs shalom.

    • Chad

      I think that deep down he knows it a sin(like we all do), but he can’t bring himself to say it. Perhaps his reason is not to alienate people

  • mkdb

    In the liberal/emergent church view it is “Culture over Scripture.” That
    is Rob Bell’s foundation.

    Feelings are supreme! Feelings and “caring” trump truth. As long as you care a lot then you, not those who insist on “truth,” are on the right path.

    Therefore, in his/their mind, they are not overly concerned with what
    the Bible says (although it may have some validity for some of them). The “culture” has spoken, “that ship has sailed” (in Bell’s words), so you are horribly wrong, if not “hateful,” if you do not get on board with what the majority of cool people … FEEL and WANT (2 Tim 4:3-4).

  • Peaches

    They had gotten the wrong pastor to talk on this subject. This man is going to be leading people straight to hell. God has not changed His mind about homosexuality from the Old Testament to the New! He said in the New that homosexuals shall NOT inherit the kingdom in the lake of fire they shall go along with liars, murderers, unbelievers, etc.. This pastor do not know his Bible and scriptures regarding this subject. He ought not speak beyond his knowledge. If God wanted man to be with man he would have given Adam a man instead of a woman or given him a man after Eve to be with.They have changed the incorruptible God into an image like corruptible man to fit their lifestyle. Roman 1:25-32; 1Tim.1:8-11;Rev 21:8, 22:14-15.

  • gdwightlarson

    We have “interpretations” differences? Fine. But Andrew is spot-on. There is a historic Christian position and a wealth of scholarly input has been resoundingly against same-sex practices.
    . Gay people may be wonderful people. That’s been my experience, for sure. But scripture CANNOT be made to speak otherwise on same-sex relationships. Rob Bell’s attempt draw on his orthodoxy and agreements with Andrew is the “bullshit” he claims others are guilty of. He can’t argue that the one issue pushes gays and gay sympathizers away. The issue IS the authority of scripture and the framework of interpretation (hermeneutics). Is there anyone out there with a high view of scripture inspiration and authority, who understands the Old Testament/New Testament relationship, and who still wants to treat same-sex people with love and respect????

    • Chad

      I believe we still need to love a gay person. Is that not what Jesus taught. Jesus stayed at the home of tax collector the most despised people of his time. Don’t get me wrong i am not going down the RB line, but I think we still need to express love. Love the sinner not the sin.

      Jesus words to the woman caught in adultery, go and sin no more. She came into the presence of Jesus, just as we need to invite all people no matter their sin, into the presence of Jesus. But unlike RB we need to be firm and say, go and sin no more.

      I think we need to be tolerant enough that people will come to church to hear the truth, but not to the extent that we undermine fundamental truth.

  • Jeremy Cosco

    Rob Bell has really gone bonkers, but his view is not surprising. I am a Pastor of a Evangelical Church and many Christians are beginning to believe this lie. I recently said that Homosexuality was a sin in a sermon and someone left our church because he thought I was a biggot. I just lol’d over the whole thing, but the sad reality is that many what I call ‘marginal’ Christian people are believing the lies of tolerance that our media and society is spewing, it is just dissapointing that a Church personality like Mr. Bell is doing the same.

  • Robyn

    Is this the same guy who made Nooma? Seriously? Wow….I have to say is win for Andrew! For sure! The bible doesn’t change just because culture does….and God KNEW what our culture would be when He inspired the scripture. I like the humility of orthodoxy comment. Unless I’m 100% sure biblically that the church is wrong, who am I to think I know better than generations of believers, martyrs and saints?

    • Jeremy Cosco

      Ya, if you believe one thing and the vast majority of current Christians as well as the last 2000 of Christianity has taught the opposite then perhaps you could be a little off? Oh Rob Bell, when will you learn?? lol

    • Chad

      Great post.

    • jeff

      the bible doesnt change, true, but the church’s interpretation of the bible has changed many times thoughout the ages. to disagree that our understanding and interpretation of the bible can become more correct is arrogant, shortsighted, and at times hateful.

  • Jan

    The foundation of christianity is repentance Jesus said…Rob Bell is apostate concerning the faith doesn’t even understand the basics of Jesus teachings about holiness…I fear for anyone who might follow him..beware!

  • http://www.facebook.com/robert.barton.963 Robert Barton

    The title graphic bothers me here. V.S.? Really is this how we want to continue this debate ‘us’ vs. ‘them?’ Rob needs to get his thoughts down and express clearly where he is coming from Biblical interpretation and or cultural. I think the best statement in the comments below was “let your yes be yes and your no be no.” Whether right or wrong Rob needs to own his position more as Andrew clearly has. But this needs to be a dialogue not a vs. And the interview seemed to me to be that a dialogue so lets honor that spirit.

    • Hank

      The things is, there are no black or white issues with Rob.

      • amos8

        … except being against conservative Christianity.

  • Ozy

    Rob Bell: “..it’s not evil, not destructive, it’s just nature…” on homosexuality.

    Poison ivy is also not evil, not destructive and it’s part of nature; but we know to stay away from it and we teach others to stay away from it.

    Those practicing homosexuality may be nice and they may care about their community, but they are still living in sin. If the majority of our nation was still against homosexuality (like in the 50’s) does that then make homosexuality a sin? Rob Bell seems to be making an argument that because the majority of people are okay with homosexuality today, then the church needs to change its stance.

    Rob Bell “so many people are tired of church because of the way it handles issues like this….the tent needs to be bigger…” I think Jesus clearly said, “narrow is the road that leads to life and wide is the path that leads to destruction.”

    • jeff

      poison ivy isnt destructive… it gives people a major allergic reaction, causes pain and suffering, and can cause death in extreme and rare circumstances. how is that not destructive.

      how is homosexuality destructive?

      • Algoria

        If God is against homosexual behavior, (and God is against it), then it doesn’t matter if it’s destructive or not.

        Andrew Wilson brought up idol worship. How is that provably destructive? Yet God warns against it.

      • Ozy

        Hi Jeff, about poison ivy, i also said, “…we know to stay away from it and we teach others to stay away from it.” Poison Ivy in itself is not evil or destructive. it’s just a plant. I likened homosexuality to not being destructive as well – but it is still sin. I never said homosexuality is destructive. However, the broad path Jesus talked about will lead to destruction.

  • Hephzibah

    Thanks for this debate. We are really in the end time and “men of God” like Rob will increase and lead many to hell. Let us all pray for our world.

    • Batman

      RB does not believe in hell. But you are right.

  • amos8

    Rob Bell (and his wife) declared in a Christianity Today article 10 YEARS AGO that he “discovered” that the Bible is NOT a “divine” product, rather, it is a “human product.”

    Yet it did not seem to alarm too many people at the time.

    Since then many have been warning the church about RB and his “ideology” and his emergent church for 10 years + … and getting attacked for it.

    And today people are finally in an uproar?

    Why didn’t more people see this coming?

    • John Russell

      Don’t mean to be argumentative (and I’m NOT a Rob Bell fan), but what issue was that in? I’ve subscribed to CT for longer than that and don’t recall that article, but would love to read it. And if you have a link, that would be great.
      John Russell
      pastor@theislandchurch.net

      • amos8

        ** The Bells started questioning their assumptions about the Bible itself – “discovering the Bible as a human product,” as Rob puts it, rather than the product of divine fiat. **

        November of 2004

        I hate to be “legalistic,” but my understanding is that they do not allow links. If, however, I’m wrong then I will gladly add a link. Or, perhaps a search with this quote/date will bring the link up.

        • John Russell

          Found it. The CT website, magazine archives, november 2004, cover story “The Emergent Mystique”.
          Thanks Amos!

          • amos8

            You got it!

    • Chad

      I believe that RB is partly right in this. People need to understand that scripture is a combination of both. Scripture just simply didn’t fall from heaven, is was written by humans. But what is important is that it is the divine inspiration of God, that led those human to write what they did.

  • consumer87

    Everyone tiptoes around the basic question. It is not about whether two men can be in a loving and committed relationship. It is about whether men engaging in same sex sexual acts are committing sin. If you believe it is wrong and sinful then you can refrain from it, no different that someone who restains themself in regard to any fleshly passion. If you believe that same sex “intimacy” is beautiful and ordained by God, then the only question left to ask is in what context? But make no mistake about it, that’s ultimately what this is about. Two men do not need the Church, Scriptures, or the State to sanction them living together. That has never been illegal, wrong, or sinful. The bottomline is whether or not the Church, Christians, and the State will approve of men engaging in sexual acts with other men?

  • Len Kiel

    rob? you may want to pack some bottled water…

  • penny

    It saddens me that Rob Bell lends his God given storytelling gift to lead people away from truth. He has never been a theologian and yet continues to pose as one. He uses the witness of community and his own thoughts to define truth instead of using the truth of scripture. I am no longer sure that Rob Bell is our brother…

  • Guest

    he never answers the question

  • Guest

    He never answers the question….hmmm

    • mkdb

      Doesn’t remind you of: “…Always learning but never to acknowledge the truth…”

  • BillLion

    Wilson was great in this, fair and gracious while clearly having a solid theological framework.

    Most interesting to me was 5 minutes in Rob couldn’t really answer Wilson’s question about why he believed the way he did about same sex relationships. Ex: Did Paul and Jesus affirm homosexuality or has God just allowed it because the world has changed.

    It isn’t enough to say that’s a deep question that he has to think more about, because if Rob hasn’t worked that out then he isn’t really sure why he thinks its OK and should have practiced the “humility of orthodoxy” Andrew mentioned.

  • singuar

    Why would you want Rob Bell as an authority on the Bible? He has not even settled in his own mind there is a hell and eternal judgement. Please spare us the distraction of his opinions. Rather, let us hear from those who believe the Bible if the issue is what does the Bible declare.

    • amos8

      As I have said many times before, including below, RB OVERTLY rejected the authority of Scripture (in his words, and in his teachings) … yet few have seemed to care … until now.

  • mkdb

    One might think that if you notions are shown to be false–or, at a minimum, unsupported by Scripture, truth, logic, etc … and if you can’t answer a simple question–then you would at least consider the fact that your assertions might be wrong. This is not merely “reasoning” and “reasonable”–it is loving.

    But in liberalism truth–and seeking to be in accord with the truth so that you do not harm anyone or grieve God–does not seem to matter, what matters most is how much you care, or what you or someone else feels.

  • OSAYCANUSEE

    Why I support traditional marriage? For righteousness
    sake, the Creator of life “God” is not mocked!! The union in marriage
    between a man and a woman is to be honored and respected because it gives honor
    to life itself. The same sex union dishonors that process because the union is
    sex lust based and not on the basis of honoring that act as to procreate life.
    That is why the sex act out of marriage also dishonors the Creator of life. The
    Creator is Love and true love is how life is brought forth in honor not to make
    a mockery of love as lust. True love is not understood in today’s society
    because true love gives honor with respect and does not mock life, especially
    that that is conceived in a love life covenant produced from the womb of a
    woman. Same sex unions by their sexual actions, in the means incurred for that
    action, dishonor that love covenant to create life. The procreative sex act is
    sacred and a Holy one to be made special by marriage and not be made as just
    common. Marriage of a man and a woman is sacred and Holy. I contend any other
    marriage whether same sex, or some other combinations ( which are sure to
    follow this tide ) is an unholy act against creation and the Creator of life.

    God is love and God loves the sinner. For all have sinned and come short of the
    Glory of God and the wages of sin is death. Which is the greater example of love which is to declare that same sex unions bring death or to allow them to just go along thinking that the consequences of their actions are not against themselves.
    I love (God’s love is greater) them and desire that they live and not die.
    Which is an example of love, to warn the person that he is falling off the cliff or just say to him continue on to the abyss with my blessing saying I love you
    as you go all the way to your eternal death.

    I have had close personal contact with those trapped in this. It is bondage and a horrible way to live. I worked for a gay man at Daleville Men’s Shoppe and saw how he lived his daily life. I attended the 1993 march in Washington D.C. and met with a group called “Transformation” of men trying to escape from this. I have been to New Orleans French Quarter during Mardi Gras and witnessed many examples of how this lifestyle
    destroys people.

    Emory could only think of his lust for sex and every other week flew to San Francisco to participate in the bath houses there. I understand as told to me by many at “Transformation” that a gay lifestyle usually has 20 to 30 encounters every month regardless of a single relationship or not. A so called single relationship
    is not monogamous, but has multiple partners ever month. To be married does not change this. They said you are not allowed to just leave that it takes a halfway house to escape because they will come and kidnap you and force you to stay gay. This
    lifestyle is consumed with sexual bondage. In New Orleans I spoke with many young teen boys who are runaways who do the bidding of those who kidnap them for sex so they are in bondage to them just for lodging and food. They are looking for ways of escape. New Orleans as many American cities have a totally gay neighborhoods. They have told me they desire to be able to practice this in the open streets which I have seen during Mardi Gras. Same sex marriage opens the Pandoras’s box to
    this happening. Most people do not understand what this lifestyle is about.

    Another aspect to what this same sex unions will cause. Look what has happened in
    Canada. It is now illegal for anyone to speak counter to gay lifestyles. You
    cannot preach the Bible verses because it will be a hate crime to do so.

    I love them and so do not condemn them. “For God so loved the world that he gave His
    only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have
    everlasting life.” John 3:16. How do you perish, but by the sin that causes death?
    Repent and live continue in your sin and you die in the abyss. There is
    another side of this coin.
    Read Romans Chapter 1:18-32

  • Davelly4

    Enjoyed “Nooma” but disappointed to hear Rob emphasize “Culture” over “Christ” all in the name of “tolerance”. In my mind, tolerance is the real issue and weapon the enemy continues to use in our culture, community and unfortunately more than ever, the church. “Apart of life in the modern world” and “this is how the world is”…really Rob? In this context, I don’t believe that our sin-filled culture has changed much as evidence in Scripture through the prophets, disciples, and even God Himself…remember The Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah ring a “Bell”? Don’t forget God’s loving response to the Ninevites. What has changed unfortunately is our tolerance to anything contrary to the never-changing, inerrant, infallible and authoritative Word of God.

    One question for you Rob?…(as Paul puts it out there to the Galatia church) “You were running a good a race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?…” (Galatians 5:7-12). Love you in Lord and praying for you…”brother”.

  • Hersh, or is it Harsh

    Sorry,
    but Rob (and others like him) is an idiot. He “chooses” to ignore the
    facts that the Bible says it IS sin as is a lot of others things. So, if
    Rob can decide to make up “his” rules to the game (really God’s game) I
    wonder if Rob would be okay if I use “my” rules to play by? Rob, my
    rules allow me to snort cocaine (mountains of it) and have sex with your
    wife… oh and I don’t have to repent (Stop my behavior) because my
    rules now says it’s not wrong/sinful. So Rob… if I can play by my
    rules instead of God’s… where does your wife live? Now… I admit that
    this comment will be offensive to some (get over it) but it makes a
    very good point. Who decides what’s right/wrong or moral/immoral or
    righteous/sinful? Me? Rob? or God/Bible? TRUST ME YOU WON’T LIKE “MY”
    RULES!!!!

  • alhatesreligion

    What do we do with God commanding us to procreate? How can two of the same kind produce an offspring? These questions are simplistic but profound and they must be addressed. We don’t have to even discuss it biblically-simple biology will show that two of the same don’t mix-science clearly shows that the male anatomy and the female work in sync. I understand that people of the same sex can love one another I would never deny their love but I understand that their love is misguided.
    Can gay people seek God, can they find him absolutely just like the substance abuser, the child molester, the adulterer, the gossip, and the murderer can. And once found God through the Hoy Spirit begins a process of change. A new life in Christ begins to produce new ideas and desires. They may not come when we want but God will never be kept from his mission to make all things new.

  • Ryan

    Sounds like Rob Bell has a mixture of moral relativism (what’s sin to you may not be sin to me) and universalism (all good people, regardless of faith, will go to heaven) and lot’s of other TOTALLY unbiblical beliefs and values. It’s funny becasue the Apostle Paul faced the same mindset in the New Testament, so it’s nothing new. Rarely does Bell even use scripture to back his beliefs just uses his own authority and understanding of scripture as basis for his stance. He seems to have a pious look of arrogance on his face until he is faced with questions that he can’t answer. Unfortunately I have never been able to swallow whatever version of the Bible Bell seems to read. Never once has God lowered His Word to the culture of the day.

    • jeff

      what do you think was happening when God came to earth as a human being, wasnt that lowering himself to the culture of the day.

      • MarciH

        No, because Jesus never compromised on what He believed. Don’t forget, they crucified Jesus because He didn’t follow cultural standards. Jesus was totally counter culture as was the early church.

      • Pastor Kent

        The short answer is NO, He came to the earth to save it, He did not come and live like the rest of the earth in sin and selfish desire He rather lived a sinless, perfect example for us to follow so we could know that with His help it is possible for us to aspire to as well…. (Huge difference)

      • mkdb

        The “culture”? Are you asserting that Jesus lowered himself to the “culture of the day”?

        The culture is always, always against God and Scripture.

        There is a world of difference between the “culture” and the people in the world.

  • ROB

    Wilson keeps pressing the point: homosexual activity of any kind is sinful and the Bible says it’s so. Bell never had an adequate response, because there is none.

  • hjeter1217

    The truth is God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. You can’t rewrite the Bible to suit your needs, nor to suit the world. If 2 people read the same scripture and both see it differently than the other, then someone is wrong on their interpretation. Seek God, Seek Holy Spirit for understanding of these scriptures. Seek TRUTH. It is all in the Word, God has not changed. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Submit yourself to God, That means, come under God’s ways not your own. Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore get wisdom, BUT with all thy getting, Get UNDERSTANDING.

  • Will

    Great debate! I think Rob Bell has talked to a guy who listened well to him and explained what is really at stake. Where does Rob Bell’s conviction that homosexuality is not sin come from? From the Bible or fear of rocking the boat?

    • mkdb

      I don’t know about “conviction,” but I believe his mind-set (and that of others) is something like, “If we accept them then they will want to believe in God.” and “The Bible (and preaching truth) offends people–so whoever does this is harming the cause of Christ; if we just ‘love’ people then they will want to become ‘followers of God.'”

      It may be well-intentioned, it may sound good to some (at least in theory), but clearly it is not biblical.

      • Pastor Kent

        “Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ” – 2Timothy 4:2-4

        I cant say it any better than God did here!… Be alarmed but be kind, pray for Rob and for those he impacts dont allow the enemy to let you hate or bash because then he wins (not that you did mkdb, just put both thoughts here)

        • mkdb

          Yes, Pastor Kent, 2 Timothy 4 and Isaiah 30:9-11 and the book of Jude often come to mind here.

  • Cam

    And just as they were starting to make headway and get clearer answers it ends…

  • MGM46

    Bell has some spiritual problems and has for some time. You are either for Christ or you are against Him. Denying what the Bible clearly says simply means you are against Him, period.

  • Derwin L. Gray

    Andrew Wilson was biblical, brilliant, and kind. Thank you Andrew.

    Wow . . . Rob Bell . . . Hmmm… what a sad example of how a person can slide so far away.

    • amos8

      I would suggest that he did not slide that far, it was just more subtle back then, but it was there.

  • David

    Andy says “Scripture teaches. . .” Obviously, it is what he understands Scripture to teach, he may be misinformed or willfully twisting Scripture to affirm what he wants it to teach. This has always been an issue in the church. However, Rob says “I have seen. . .” Rob continuously goes to his experience and his observations and refuses to explain what Scripture supports his views. Then he gets defensive when he is asked why he is changing his view. You could use this same line of reasoning with ANYTHING. “Culture has shifted so it is time we shift ourselves.” Christ did not say “I know Pharisees who are committed to their beliefs and they are good people, I just can’t see turning them away, that ship has sailed.” At least Andy still wants to put the Bible as the authority, Rob wants his feelings to be the authority – and that is scary

    • mkdb

      If the “culture” (e.g. a majority of key people) decide that abortion is right then we must also conclude–if we follow Bell’s foundational guiding principle–that the “ship has sailed” and we, too, must get on board with killing babies. It could be murder, stealing, adultery, lying, or ______; if enough people agree with then so should the church. Why? Because of the hierarchy of the emerging church/liberalism: “Culture over Scripture”

  • deandeguara

    Finally an intelligent debate and conversation where the guy defending biblical truth doesn’t look like an idiot. Thank you Andrew Wilson for going on the offensive!

  • Rick Lopez

    Rob Bell is a heretic and false teacher. Andrew’s demeanor and presentation was off the hook, over the top excellent!

  • jeff

    i am not aware of another “sin” in the bible like two loving people engaging in same-sex sexual relations. There must be more “sins” that don’t harm anybody.

  • Duane

    If our theology is based on change because of experience and culture, then it is exactly that; our theology. But it is not God’s theology.

    Thanks for posting this video. The only commendation I can give to Rob Bell is that he at least had the guts to publicly share his position. The other guy ate him up for lunch, though…

  • Charles

    This kind of thing is destroying the Christian church. New Age, humanists like Rob Bell are going further and further from the Bible. He holds the the believe that you change the Bible to fit culture. A real Christian using the Bible to change us in a sinful culture. It’s sad to see guys I used to like go down that road.

  • Vineyard girl

    Andrew, keep preaching and holding to the truth in love. You did a fantastic job. This was so grieving to my spirit to watch Rob. Romans 12:2 “Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect”. New Living Translation

  • Daniel

    Yikes! Rob Bell’s coy and evasive answers have made me loose respect for him as a relevant theologian.

    • J

      Robs relevance as a a theologian was lost years ago and IMO “Love Wins” is the headstone of that relevance…his teachings are dangerous and lack any sense of orthodoxy whatsoever.

      • Gun Nordström

        “his teachings are dangerous and lack any sense of orthodoxy whatsoever”

        Was it not just the same words the priests said about Jesus 2000 years ago?

        • Casey Scott

          Dangerous? Yes. Lacking orthodoxy? No, definitely not. See Matthew 22:41-46

        • mkdb

          No. But even if there were, the implication is that …

          1) Rob Bell (and/or his teachings) are just like Jesus

          2) We can’t alert others of false teachers (e.g. that so-and-so’s teachings are dangerous and…) because that would put them in the same class as Jesus.

          Are you attempting to equate Bell’s teachings with Jesus’ teachings?? Are you defending his “Culture over Scripture” hierarchy?

  • Batman

    RB looked like a deer in the head lights of truth. “Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be maligned…” 2 Peter 2:2

  • Pastor Jeff

    ~ 13:40 ~
    AW: “Doesn’t God get to decide what is acceptable…?”
    RB: “Based on your understanding of scriptures…?”
    AW: “Based on the entire sweep of scripture.”
    RB: “So your understanding of the sweep of scripture?”
    I can almost hear the Serpent talking to Eve. “Did God really say that? Are you sure that wasn’t just your interpretation? The fruit is good so it can’t possibly be sinful – right?”

    • Bard

      One of the great tragedies in our collective history as the Church is Christians not understanding that their interpretation of the truth is not one and the same as the truth…

    • Guest

      interesting… definitely worth a second thought.

      On that note, it is a topic that isn’t clearly spoken about in scripture because it really wasn’t in existence back then. Its sort of like asking the Bible to have a verse about green energy? or girls being forced to marry someone they don’t want to? It doesn’t specifically say, we should stand up for the 14 year old girl forced to marry a 30 year old man that she has never met.

      How many of us have read the original language to take in context what those verses really mean? I haven’t. I read another scholar’s interpretation of it and there MAY be a chance that it doesn’t mean what we think it means.

      • MarciH

        That it why it is so important to study and read different translations. But the most important thing is to have the Spirit and let Him teach you.

  • http://iChilly.com iChilly

    Rob’s view is safe — the liberal culture will applaud ‘his’ christianity. And, I’m sure churches will fill up with those seeking a God that looks the other way. But, that’s NOT the life the Bible tells us to live. The cross was perpendicular to the earth. It was radical. It was LOVE.

    “The biggest problem with Christians today is that no one wants to kill them anymore.” ~ Søren Kierkegaard

    • Visitor

      Are you saying we should kill the gays?

      • http://iChilly.com iChilly

        nope, that is not what I’m saying.

        • Algoria

          “The biggest problem with Christians today is that no one wants to kill them anymore.”

          100,000 or more Christians are killed each year for their faith in Christ so Søren Kierkegaard can now rest in peace.

          As the saying goes, “Coming to a neighborhood near you?”

          • http://iChilly.com iChilly

            This quote, by Kierkegaard, was spoken over 150 years ago in Denmark. It was in regards to how Christians were watering down their message and accepting a worldly lifestyle in order to appeal to and be accepted by society. Think about how much worse it’s gotten since then…

            And, of course, there are Christians in places around the world that are hated & hunted every day because of their faith in Christ. This quote is meant for those in the western world where Christianity is practiced freely & openly.

          • Algoria

            I agree with your observation about the condition of the Church here in the West.
            This situation cannot last forever however, and my point was that one day believers in Christ may well be killed for their faith here as well.

          • MarciH

            The fact of the matter is that one day believers here WILL be killed for their faith. There will be at least one more persecution before Jesus comes back. You can already see the seeds starting to be sown.

      • Marcusi

        We love the gays. We want to impart to them the Gospel for the forgiveness of sins, their restoration to God, and for them to experience Christ-like transformation. The Gospel makes them “new creations” and live their lives according to the designs of God.

  • jerome

    This is a very relevant discussion and many churches are never discussing this and hoping that they never have to ever deal with this problem. Our church never openly discussed this matter and I feel that this is not judging, but rather applying what the Bible is teaching in stead of bringing in my own feelings in for the homosexual and wander how are they going to have a satisfying relationship. We cannot deny that some people are what they are and it is not a sin, but when they engage in sexual relationships and practising that lifestyle
    that is a sin and we should not underestimate the power of the Gospel message to change a person. Why do the church want to embrace and accommodate sin and wanting to be selective about what is sin.

    • Marcusi

      A church should teach the whole counsel of God. Sin must be exposed in any and all forms. Truth must cradle love. The “new birth” transforms people from what they are to what they should be in Christ.

  • Reginald

    I just don’t get how Rob Bell has allowed this to get into his mind that the teachings of Jesus are one thing and the rest of the Bible (i.e. the Law, the Prophets or the teachings of Paul) are separate entities. It’s almost like he thinks God evolved from the Old Testament law days and that Jesus Christ is the culmination of that evolution. It’s almost like he thinks Jesus Christ abolished the Old Testament and the Law.

    Jesus abolished the requirements of the Law; by fulfilling it for us.

    Matthew 5:17 ~ Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

    • Visitor

      I’ve always been confused by this because doesn’t the bible have lots of rules that we don’t follow today? Like the fabric mixing, kosher laws, treatment of women? Maybe you do, but the vast majority clearly do not. And Jesus told you to give up all your belongings – don’t see many folks doing that.

      On what criteria do you choose which rules to follow and which to ignore? What about duty to enact the punishments prescribed in the OT – Punishment via death for talking back to your parents, adultery and, yes, being gay. Is it un-Christian to allow them to live at all?

      • Algoria

        From my experience links are not allowed on this site but try googling
        “Why Same-Sex Acts Got the Death Penalty in OT, but Not Today” by Tim Keller.

        The gist of it was that, “Because of Christ, the ceremonial law is repealed” yet “…the apostles understood the Old Testament moral law to still be binding on us. In short, the coming of Christ changed how we worship but not how we live.”

        As to the death penalty for offences against God’s rules, “Because of Christ, the church is no longer a nation-state imposing civil penalties.” “The church is not a civil government, and so sins are dealt with by exhortation and, at worst, exclusion from membership. This is how a case of incest in the Corinthian church is dealt with by Paul (1 Corinthians 5:1ff and 2 Corinthians 2:7-11).”

        Read the whole thing.

        You may not agree with this but it’s some food for thought.

        • Reginald

          That was a very well explained article by Tim Keller!

      • Reginald

        The new covenant isn’t about following rules. It’s about reconciliation; putting our faith in Jesus Christ for our salvation by faith in His atoning death for us. His atoning death frees us from the bondage and the curse of sin, but it does not free us to continue sinning. We are supposed to follow the Word of God still; not of out obligation of ordinance of following rules, but out of a response of love by what God did for us through Jesus Christ.

        The Old Testament punishments and ordinance requirements of man in the Mosaic Law were abolished in Jesus Christ; who fulfilled them for us. However all those things that God called abominations in the Old Testament are still abominations in the New covenant.

        Punishment for living open rebellion to God and in willful abomination before Him will be given by Him.

  • Shirley

    Well, Jerome you are saying that people are born that way which is not true. We chose to live either by God’s word or we decide to live as the world dictates. Sin is sin but sexual sin in God’s eyes is strongly wrong with many other problems that the sin causes.

    We should pray and try to help that person but Rob Bell needs to get out of the ministry because it is people like him that causes many people to go down the road that lead to destruction. Shame on you Rob Bell find another profession.

    • Gun Nordström

      People are really born that way and they have chosen a difficult life by being different from a common standard. One gay man asked a medium the following question:” I myself am not struggling anymore, as I have come out realising who I really am. But I would like to know why there are so much of us nowadays.” He got the following answer: Before you came to the earth this time, you decided to give yourself a valuable gift. By being born gay you knew that you had to search deeply within who you really are and by this searching you would at the same time find your soul.
      For more details go to Youtube Abraham – Hicks

  • Wendy

    Used to be a huge Rob Bell fan, but he’s really missed the mark on this one. The Bible clearly states that this behavior isn’t acceptable. We love our friends in this situation, we don’t want to suggest they not be part of the faith, but if it is truly sinful behavior we still need to call it what it is.

  • Visitor

    I think that the awkwardness of Rob Bell belies his honest internal struggle. He can’t, as an avowed christian, say that the bible doesn’t matter or is simply wrong. He starts down the right path talking about some of the prohibitions in Leviticus that we no loner honor (two fabrics), but shies away because that is a house of cards. Once you realize that no one really follows all the rules in the bible (and uncover all the contradictions) then its authority is clearly diminished. He’s not brave enough to go there…

    Andrew has the easy part just pitching the bible over and over, while Rob can’t call him out on the contradictions in multiple areas (slavery, dietary issues, women’s rights, genocide) that we’ve moved past and would never consider moral today.

    Here is a case where what is right in the heart is competing with doctrine. The heart has already won. Its time to recognize the bible for what it is – an ancient work of an ancient people, reflecting their own culture and limited understanding of nature.

    • Algoria

      So it’s time to disregard God’s word and encourage every man to do what is right in his own eyes. That’s always worked out well for the human race.
      Of course it’s always possible that Utopia is just around the corner as we reflect our progressive culture and advanced understanding of nature. Maybe we’ll create a brave new world without God after all.

    • mkdb

      How would you describe the heart of man? You seem to be implying that it is good, if not great, perhaps divine–but, in your view it is definitely NOT what the Bible says: “deceitful above all things” and “full of evil” and “madness” and sin and that “EVERY inclination of the thoughts of his heart were ONLY EVIL ALL the time”! Quite a contrast.

      You seem to want to leave it up to us/our hearts and our subjectivity AND, what is more, not to an objective, divine, unchanging, eternal standard.

      The heart does not compete with doctrine; the heart (the one that is deceitful, full of evil, etc) does not “compete”–it clashes with and is in conflict with the truth, doctrine, the Spirit, God, love, etc. But–and this is exceedingly important–the heart will always follow what is approved by the culture (Lk 16:15; Matt 7:13-14).

  • Tony

    Why does “cultural consciousness” have anything to do with what God has spoken. Promiscuous or not. Rob, you are WAY off on this.

  • Reginald

    Well…..I will start with this observation. Rob may or may not have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord of creation and possibly his personal savior, but he certainly has not accepted Jesus Christ as “his own” Lord; because he has not accepted the authority of the Word of God as his source of doctrinal authority. By what I can see of the random dancing of the eyes, when Andrew spoke of the authority of the Word, the culture of the world is his lord now.

    Sadly this heretical thinking is becoming more and more common in the church; where people believe that just because Jesus did not come repeating the Mosaic Law as God’s word, that He did not accept it as God’s word. There are a growing number of people that believe that Jesus Christ and whole and entirety of the Word of God are separate. John chapter 1 should have taught us all otherwise. You cannot accept Jesus Christ as having Lordship over your life; without accepting the authority of the Word of God with Him.

    Revelation 19:13 ~ He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

    I will leave this all with one passage; regarding the topic of debate and Rob’s teaching on it……..

    1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 ~ For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who reject this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

    [Debate Ended and Terminated]

    • Bard

      Interestingly enough, Jesus never made complete acceptance of the authoritative Word of God a prerequisite for being His disciple…

      • Reginald

        Luke 11:27-28 ~ And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

        and again….

        Matthew 4:3-4 ~ Now when the tempter came to Him, he said, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE, BUT BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD.’ “

      • Billy Tang

        to me that sounds like a very dangerous statement. I believe that the Word of God is directly from God. In which case, if it is from God, then it is perfect. If it is not completely trustworthy, then on what basis can we claim Jesus is the Son of God?
        If we don’t completely accept the Word of God then I think it is a fair conclusion to say that we don’t completely accept the authority of Jesus on our lives.
        God’s Word is perfect. If we say we don’t want to accept certain parts of His Word, we have picked and chosen parts of God we want.

      • Stacy P

        In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God!!! Enough said about Christ and His stand on the authoritative Word of God. He was, is and always will be the Word! He Himself claimed “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life – no man comes to the Father except through me.” I find that to be VERY authoritative…He was speaking to His disciples when He said that. The whole of scripture points to the authority of God’s Word over everything else. Jesus is the total fulfillment of the Word, so He does claim full authority of God’s Word as a prerequisite to being a follower. How many times does He quote the OT and the prophets pointing to His coming? All fulfilled…

    • Hank

      There are people who do not interpret the Bible literally and claim it wasn’t intended to be interpreted literally, and their view is gay marriage is not a sin. They may claim most of the fundamentals of faith you claim in what it takes to be a Christian, but not this view. They would say you are interpreting the Bible wrong and that Paul and Jesus would have welcomed gay marriage if it were available in that culture. All I’m saying is that just because someone thinks gay marriage is not sin does not mean that they cannot be a Christian.

      • Reginald

        There is a word of people who do not interpret the Bible literally or claim it wasn’t intended to be interpreted literally……..It’s called unbeliever.

        The Bible is supposed to be interpreted literally by the Holy Spirit.

        You said, “If someone thinks gay marriage is not a sin, it doesn’t mean they cannot be a Christian.” Technically you are correct. They are not excluded for “thinking” gay marriage is no a sin, but they are mistaken.

        This is what Jesus had to say…….Matthew 7:21 ~ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

        This is what Paul had to say…..1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ~ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

        So that means that if Christians are supposed to inherit the Kingdom of God; yet Paul says homosexuals won’t inherit the Kingdom, that should tell you that you cannot be a homosexual (one that lives in open and willing abomination and rebellion to God) and walk into His Kingdom.

        If this is not enough, Paul also wrote this about those given over to homosexuality…..and for those that approve of those the give themselves over to homosexuality.

        Romans 1:24-32 ~ Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
        who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

  • Deji

    Gen 1 says it all. Be fruitfull, multiply….only man and woman can multiply. Human EGO has turned us into REbels, we seem to think we know and can rationalize everything. Once we are done rationalizing, then we take the word of God and try to make it fit our thinking.

    BUT Gods word is same yesterday, today and forever. He is God all by himself and Modernization can never change the word of God.

    All we have to do is Love all people regardless, but you don’t have to condone their deeds. Your ultimate allegiance is to God Almighty.

    • Hank

      Playing Devil’s advocate here: If the purpose of mairrage is to be fruitful and multiply then what about married couples who limit the amount of children they have or choose to have no children (at least for a season of time) using some form of birth control? It would seem those couples are in sin too.

  • CurioustoTruth

    I’m curious as to James response of baptizing openly gay individuals, applauding that and not explaining how they truly arrived at that point…at which point was acceptance granted?

    • CurioustoTruth

      Andrew rather…

    • scootr1295

      He says that they had already repented and believed before they were baptized. Are you guilty, my friend of selective listening?

  • David Henderson

    Rob Bell could make it in the Olympics in dodgeball. He would win the gold.

  • Jeff

    Rob Bell must get a lot of financial backing to take that position. No scripture only how he feels, thinks and experiences. He has definitely left God. So sad!

  • David Henderson

    Rob Bell puts “cultural changes” above the “unchanging word of God.”

  • Marcusi

    I grieve very deeply by the shipwrecked faith of Rob Bell. I am torn between praying for his restoration and his salvation. This is not just an endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle but an attack on the Authority of Scripture.

    • Gun Nordström

      Before Jesus began preaching he went out in the wilderness fastening and meditating and had all sorts of temptations that made him strong to be his own authority by listening to the truth within. One of his most important mission was to tell all interested that, as he had found the Kingdom of heaven within himself so all of us are able to find God within. Don’t seek God outside as you are able to find him only by truthfully listening to the voice of your heart. Thus we will find that we are all Sons and Doughters of our Maker who will give us His wisdom that we are all one. Only by realising this truth we can be the light of the world as Jesus was.

      I am so happy that Rob Bell has been eagerly searching and found the connection to a loving God within his heart. Knowing that LOVE always WINS is the ROCK upon which Jesus wanted us to build our house. Flesh and blood did not reveal this unto him but our FATHER which is in within everyone who wants to open the heart to the voice of LOVE.

      • amos8

        Ummm….

      • scootr1295

        But Gun, what do we do with the objective word of the Living God where it tells us that He is Holy, Holy, Holy (as opposed to love, love, love); also the word of the the Living and true, thrice Holy God tells us about our heart when it says that “our heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick, who can know it?”

        Gun, Jesus didn’t discover the kingdom of heaven within Himself–He always knew His identity and His mission was to bear witness to the truth, not live out some self revelation. No, Jesus never told anybody that we were to find the God within. You are sadly mistaken.

    • mkdb

      “This is not just an endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle but an attack on the Authority of Scripture.”

      Yes, the authority of Scripture is the bigger issue and concern here. The “endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle” is a HUGE issue, but not nearly as important as the pattern established in Genesis 3:1.

  • Allan Calhoun

    As usual rob bell BEGINS with the world view & then tries to interpret Holy Scripture around that world view.
    The FEAR OF THE LORD is the beginning of WISDOM > WISDOM is the application of KNOWLEDGE…. RESPECT FOR GOD & HIS WORD releases REVELATION & WISDOM of HIS WORD….
    JESUS said to Peter > “Flesh & blood did not reveal this unto you but my FATHER which is in heaven…” We need a Revelation of GOD & His WORD > THAT my friend is ALWAYS COUNTERCULTURAL > JESUS says: “they hated me & they will hate you also…”
    Rob is LITERALLY a false prophet that JESUS warned us would come in the last days…. listen to that kind of trash to your own detriment.

  • David Henderson

    “this is why so many people don’t want to be a part of the church” A quote from Rob Bell referring to people being called out for their sin. I would like to ask is there any sin that the church should call someone out on? Or do we let culture define the church?

    I want to serve in a church that defines culture, not one that is defined by culture.

  • Barry

    AS someone that become a Christian out of the excesses of the 70’s the Sex Drugs etc, but once becoming a new creation, never went back to that lifestyle. Jesus came to set the captive FREE, this truth has never changed no matter what you were captive too. I thank God for Andrew Wilson for standing up for scripture and his articulate debating skill.
    Rob Bell seems like a nice person but his interpretation of scripture is clouded by biased mindset.

    • CurioustoTruth

      Barry, I really appreciate your transparency. Your word bias however, tripped me up a bit. I believe we make a bias distinction when say things like this. We all have preferences, tastes and allowances to things that God claims disapproval toward. Music, movies, humor, food, indulgences, addictions…where does His Grace end? I don’t believe scripture or Gods laws affirm homosexuality, though it has clearly muddied up the proverbial waters of justice through historical accounts of Jesus doing the unexpected in response to our own interpretations of what he can, cannot or will do…

  • Eo Utnac

    … Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat … Matthew 7:13

  • CurioustoTruth

    It seems as though Christianity is holding a double standard regarding their argumentation of this issue. How can we make claims and assertions about this area and not uphold these same standards and the judgements for all self-claimed Christians? Based on scripture are there “lesser sins” to which grace is applied and “greater sins” to which we pronounce judgement? Or is the judgement the same across the spectrum? When do we accept individuals as believers, after they overcome, before, during, or all the above and on which basis do we make this absolute assertion? I’m struggling to find an absolute point of reference for the denial of Grace to those who receive it willingly…is Christs covering enough for all issues…or only some…?

    • mytwocents

      Grace is not given so that we may freely sin. I can’t go around telling people that i’m going to continue to steal and cheat because I’m covered by God’s grace. I’m covered because I realize that I am sinner, and that I am nothing without Him.

      I may be covered, but still doesn’t make my sins okay.

      • CurioustoTruth

        I agree with Paul’s response to expanding grace through sin. Although, if Jesus lets Sinners go free, who are we to condemn one sin over another. We may establish definition, however, only God can establish justification. Consider the woman caught in adultery, did God change the law, obey the law or disregard the law or something new?

        • Tanner Sheahan

          Jesus forgave her sin and told her to sin no more, he didn’t justify or condone it. Jesus fulfilled the law, he didn’t abolish it. You should polish up your exegesis. None of your points make a point at all.

          • CurioustoTruth

            Wo, wo, wo…Jesus fulfilled the law…? The law was to kill her…or do you deny that…

          • CurioustoTruth

            I suppose you choose to believe your exegesis is superior, how do you exegete the passage of Jesus claiming Lord over the Sabbath?

          • CurioustoTruth

            You also made a mistake with the word Justify in regards to her sin as it was defined by the scriptures…if she wasn’t justified, she left in her sin destined to die without hope…just sayin…

          • Tanner Sheahan

            Yes, the law says that she should die for her sin, Jesus died for for all sin. Substitutionary atonement is a very basic doctrine you seem to have missed. The answer to your OP is that yes, Jesus did something new with the law, He was capable of fulfilling it and did so with His death and resurrection. Do you remember what the purpose of the law is? Study Hebrews.

            You confuse many points my friend. What you believe to be good arguments show a shallow understanding. I don’t mean any personal attack on you but you post many replies and appear to be seeking knowledge by berating others. Keep studying and seeking Jesus.

            My apologies for confusing the matter with the colloquial definition of “justify,” perhaps sanction or excuse would have been a better choice.

            Your challenge is off topic.

          • CurioustoTruth

            It’s not off topic. The premise for these statements made at the onset beg their holistic application. We cannot affirm or deny in one area and counter-intuitively switch our answers when it comes to other areas of similar interest. I agree that I am posting a lot and would further agree I am seeking, although I am unintentionally (as you put it) berating others. The answers should unequivocally set the records straight…but the answers seem remarkably mirky.

            I also wouldn’t agree with your label of Shallow Understanding… understanding is the reason the discussion is taking place. Many things are not clearly understood when it comes to these discussions. I would challenge your side-step to the issues I am addressing as irrelevant or irreverent to the conversation.

          • Tanner Sheahan

            Ok then, forgive me for not further wasting my time with irrelevant arguments in the comments section. Again, your points are not points. Submit to scripture and seek Jesus.

          • CurioustoTruth

            Which scriptures should I submit to as I seek Jesus… I may be more willing than you think.

          • Tanner Sheahan

            Do you have a suggestion for private conversation that could be continuous? I’d rather not hijack the comments section. You can look me up on Google+ and we can chat that way if you like, I am posting under my real name. I would love the opportunity to continue the conversation under the premise of your last comment.

  • southern female pastor

    Love does indeed win but God’s definition of love once looked like Jesus on the cross. He’s never seemed to worry about being politically correct or inclusive in man’s eyes. His love wins by transforming us into His image. & that means our image must change.

    • CurioustoTruth

      Many problems on this forum are ambiguous responses to legitimate questions. Please tie down your answer to your absolute Truth statement.

      • CurioustoTruth

        How does God change babies born into sin, into his own image if they die in their sin Nature?

        • CurioustoTruth

          Also, Gods image must have changed throughout history if you are a female pastor…what is your response to that?

  • markyd

    Rob Bell is supposed to have written a book and all…including being an eloquent speaker; however, he just can’t expect even a babe in Christ to believe his rhetoric. How dumb can he be. I feel, I seen. Dude what does the Bible see and what does the Bible say. From his very uncomfortable visible demeanor one could tell that he has no confidence in his argument. I only hope he is genuinely ignorant and not doing it knowing for the fame, money and the rest of it.

    • (fafah

      homosexuality is sin against GOd;remember SODOM and GOMORAH,

    • markyd

      I hope Rob is reading this. My friend Rob, be a man and take a stand. If you want to endorse the subject go for it. Don’t just come on for a debate and then start wallowing in self pity “oh you guys are ganging up on me” . Be a man and just remember “So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth.” says the Lord …..Rev 3:16 Just take a stand my friend. Hope like Paul, you too once again have a genuine paradigm shift to the truth. Love you with the love of the Lord .

  • Allen

    The Scripture is either based on truth or it is not, the Word of God was never designed to be politically correct, but to be morally and spiritually right. Can gay people have a life long love for each other yes, can they spend their whole life in one relationship yes, can gay people be ethically sincere, and loving of humanity yes. However the gay lifestyle is a contradiction to the fundamental foundation of scripture. Because current culture demands an exception to biblical truths does not mean we give in to the spirit of this age! The Word said that in the last days men would call that which good evil, and evil good, it also said that men would do that which is right in their own eye’s. Roman chapter 1, Galatians chapter 5, Leviticus and so forth and so on. Christianity is about love and acceptance, forgiveness and submission, as well as surrender. The scripture is very clear when it tells us that if we are a new creation in Christ then we are a new person and the former things have passed away….Yes I agree that the church must adopt a clear understanding of how to help and to love and to be patient with gay people, but let us also be clear if the gay lifestyle is not acceptable to God, when in former times it clearly was not; then there is one more thing that must be clear God then can change His mind that means He is not perfect….if that is true, our faith does not stand on a sovereign God but a shaky deity at best where there is no absolutes in Christ there can never be assured promises of the future. If this is truth where do we rest our hope!

    • CurioustoTruth

      I can give several examples of God changing his mind…a few keyword searches in your bible program or google…the issue is your understanding of sovereignty…is God truly sovereign? If God is absolutely Sovereign, He alone is the absolute point of reference by which we navigate our world. However, sovereignty implies authority, ownership and ability above and beyond our framework. You cannot conclude that God “cannot” anything based on this assumption…

      • CurioustoTruth

        Just so I’m not ambiguous; consider Hezekiah, Isaiah and Jonah. Also consider Christ’s denial of the judgement of the woman caught in adultry as he let her go…which did Christ choose to follow, begs the question doesn’t it…

      • scootr1295

        Curious,
        Now, I’m curious-are you even born again? You have a very cantankerous attitude in my opinion. I’m also wondering, are you struggling with homosexuality, or with God’s judgment in general? Jesus Christ hung on a cross for you. Does that mean anything to you? Instead of justifying certain controversial issues, why don’t you uphold holiness and righteousness, the way God intended? A question–if you were to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ TODAY, with your expressed opinions about sin in general and homosexuality in particular ringing in your mind, what do you REALLY believe would be the outcome as the Lord examines them? I think it’s time to stop playing games, and get off the fence, one way or another. Because it’s to HIM we will all answer. And on that day, I don’t think He will have much compassion on ANY sin. Food for thought and prayer.

  • mommaofthree

    Rob Bell is clearly a product of the modern-day 501 (c-3) IC church. :/

    • Idontthinkso

      Careful…this statement is pretty sketchy…and assumes a whole lot

  • billy

    It seems like from his point of view since time has changed that if same sex can be together why does it only have to be 2 people why not 3 or 4 people together since its a new age? The Word is the same yesterday, today and forever, it was written one way and was meant to stay that way, selling salvation cheaply does not mean it is salvation.

  • steve

    At very least Rob should be able to clearly articulate his views and he should do it based on the scripture and if he can’t do that he should just be silent until he can. He is on a very slippery slope here and it is sad. To argue it is not destructive just cause he has seen some couples who are happy – while I know lots of people who would be happy with multiple wives etc. does that make is that ok?. I am so disappointed in Rob who has in the past been a great apologist. I think he got his butt handed to him by Andrew who was precise and clear in his final statements – why so many people don’t want to be part of the church is they don’t want the lordship of Christ – they just want what they want and Jesus warned us this would happen. And finally – seems like Paul spoke to the issues of the practice of liberality when a “weaker” brother thought you shouldn’t eat meat offered to idols – too bad Rob is chowing down on the idolatry telling the rest of us weaker brothers and sisters to get over it.

  • CurioustoTruth

    If we can clearly define the eternal aspect of our response in this area, I wonder if we can also clearly articulate who else should be judged on these same merits who inherits eternal life?. What about…

    1. Unborn babies
    2. Handicapped
    3. Children
    4. Those who know nothing regarding God’s requirements
    5. Mentally disabled individuals
    6. Those who have not been baptized
    7. Those who abide by Gods law regardless of a basis
    8. Murderers and rapists who say a quick prayer before they go
    9. People who walk away from a long term commitment to God after years of dedicated service…

    Think carefully, these questions are closely related in their premise. If you claim grace in these areas and denounce it elsewhere, you hold a double standard that cannot be reasonably followed or consistently representative of your overall view…

    • CurioustoTruth

      Oh yeah, and those who commit suicide, maybe you know one or two…

      • CurioustoTruth

        Will God accept any of these and why, how do you know…?

        • MarciH

          1, 3 & 5 – There must be some mental capability to recognize sin and the need for a savior, so yes I believe the unborn, young children, and the mentally disabled (as long as from young childhood) go to heaven. One note on the mentally disabled, if it did not happen till they were older, then no, they would not go to heaven, they had a chance to repent. None of us know when the last chance we have is.
          2 – As long as the handicapped are mentally fit, they are just the same as anyone else.
          4 – Paul answered this question in Romans. Read the first chapter.
          6 – There is no requirement to be baptized for salvation. It is a sign of obedience, not a prerequisite to be saved. Best example, the thief on the cross. He wasn’t baptized, yet Jesus Himself said he would be in paradise with Him.
          7 – The Bible is clear that we are all sinners and that no one can keep the law perfectly. Only Jesus was able to which is why He was the only suitable sacrifice. And Romans 6:23 states, “For the wages of sin (singular) is death.” If you’ve sinned once, you’re condemned
          8 – Depends, do they really recognize their sin, are they truly repentant (not just sorry they got caught), then yes, I would say they’re saved. Again, look at the thief on the cross. He basically said a quick prayer before he went.
          9 – The Bible is clear that the sign of a true christian is that they will not fall away. I’m not talking about someone just being angry or falling into sin and then coming back, but someone who completely denies God. Just saying you believe doesn’t make you a christian, there must be total surrender to Jesus’ lordship. After all, Jesus said that there would be many who would say they preached and taught in His Name who He will not know.

          • CurioustoTruth

            Marci, I have replied to this once already and the comment was deleted. I’m unsure why. I really appreciate your heart and desire to respond to this challenge, but I want to further discipline our conversation by affirming your response. Are you suggesting that your view of Christ as the savior of the world was God’s “exclusive” plan to save the world? And if you believe that to be true, how can we make allowances for unborn babies, young children, suicide victims, etc… based on this premise.

            If unborn babies, children and handicapped individuals who know nothing of God are permitted to enter Heaven and are justified, We would be totally fine then in handicapping individuals and aborting babies to ensure their eternal security. This creates a contradiction. Unless, God, in sovereignty judges beyond the law and beyond the exclusive acceptance of His gift. (perhaps this is why my comment was deleted)

            How can we further judge, with undue emphasis, any one particular area over another through our use of such absolute pronouncements.

            I don’t think it’s unfair to expect a holistic outworking of your belief in this sense. I also believe it to be reasonable in making a distinction of Judgment and determining who ultimately gets to choose the verdict.

          • corrinne

            it comes down to grace. killing unborn babies is a sin. God said in Romans 6: shall we sin that grace may abound? By no means!

            Jesus Christ is God’s exclusive plan to save the world because anything else falls short. Jesus paid for our sin on the cross and rose again from the grave to give us a new life. God did it for us cuz he knew we couldn’t do it. None of us can be good enough to go to heaven. we are all born with a desire- a want to- to do whats wrong. that is our sin nature. Jesus came to free us from our sin nature and reconcile our broken relationship with God. Jesus was our substitute. Either we can put our trust in His payment for our sins and receive eternal life, or we can choose not to and pay for our sins ourself, in hell. we did the crime but Jesus did our time on the cross. when we receive his free gift of salvation, we are acquitted of our sins and given a new life. we are to walk in this new life.

        • scootr1295

          Curious,

          1 Corinthians 6 gives a whole grocery list of sin. Paul then says those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Then he goes on to say, ” And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

          We are ALL accepted by God on the basis of the death of Christ, and our repentance of sin, to include the sin of homosexuality. Homosexuality is not unpardonable. The only unpardonable sin is not accepting the pardon God offers in Christ. We don’t get to heaven based on what we do, but on what He’s done.

          I’m wondering, Curious: in what, or whom are you trusting to get you to heaven, and being right with God?

          • CurioustoTruth

            Precisely. You are stating it accurately. Though, if we base salvation on this premise alone, how can we make allowances for these others. Do you believe babies go to heaven? And on what basis? What we are inferring is Gods discernment. He gets to decide. Are we born with a sinful nature, are we guilty from birth, will all who fail to say a prayer enter Gods kingdom. If not, The statement assumes we can abort babies and mentally Ill on behalf of Heavens grace, essentially doing God a favor. Or, is God just and Good and morally sovereign, capable of making that distinction of His own merit. I will conced that I don’t know an answer to this outside Gods Character. What is good to remember and cause us pause is, “in the beginning was the Word”. I’ll leave this one to Him.

          • CurioustoTruth

            Just to add a little context, I have lost children and family with mental illness. I believe God welcomed my children, who never said a prayer of repentance, on the sole basis of Gods sovereignty.

          • CurioustoTruth

            You tell me where my children went, and I’ll tell you where you can go…

    • zunelander

      Once a person understands just how wonderfully marvelous and deep God’s love is for His creations, they will see what is already in modern bibles (but mistranslated in various places): that God plans to save everyone (1 Corinthians 15:22). If you want to read more on this, pick up the books of author, Michael Wood. He’s a cryptographer who has studied the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient texts and has gotten rid of the contradictions and mistranslations of today’s modern bibles, restoring the original bible’s message. “Pauline Paradoxes Decoded” is the book I would suggest you read first. The bible says that the last enemy to be destroyed will be death (1 Corithians 15:26). Think about it! If some people go to heaven while others are literally eternally in a place called hell in spiritual death, then death will not have been destroyed like the bible says it will be. Everyone has to live in order for death to no longer exist, in any way.

      Always in love. Sometimes in agreement, but not always in agreement.

  • disqus_XdMKRXCDLP

    Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not
    lie with
    mankind, as
    with
    womankind: it is
    abomination-Can someone ask me where I missed it can the word make this clearer than this?

  • Jalih

    I like this! I personally don’t in favor of same sex relationships

  • steve ascension

    “The Bible is very easy to
    understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We
    pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the
    minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly.”― Søren Kierkegaard,

  • Judged

    SIN is SIN – I cannot justify myself or compare myself to a fallen world to be Holy.

    The Bible says gluttony is a Sin – but because we have a buffet in the restaurant I’m not sinning.
    The Bible says that bestiality is a Sin – but because I’m committed to this buffalo and all is legal I’m not sinning.
    The Bible says to lust in your heart after someone is a Sin – but because there is a porn shack in every city and its legal I’m not sinning.
    It does not matter how our culture is or changes – God’s word is still pointing out to me my Sins – I cannot allow the culture or the laws of the land to change my conviction of what the Bible says. The Bible says to me what Sin is – But I’m not a judge of you or what you choose. I can only judge myself and see the fruits of another. I must change my heart and life to the teachings of the Bible not to the worlds standard. Christ teaching me To be Holy as He is Holy.

  • George Serofim

    Rob Bell your believe this taking you all the way in to the lake of Fire , HELL that is for you .
    1 Corinthians 6:9,10 Galatians 5:19-21 Ephesians 5:3 REvelation 21:8

    • corrinne

      Rob Bell is seriously deceived, and currently preaching a false gospel where homosexuality is concerned, but it’s wrong to judge his eternal destination. Paul said don’t judge things before its appointed time. (1 Cor.4:2-5)

      • corrinne

        we should be praying for his repentance, and the repentance of others like him.

      • George Serofim

        Hi Corrinne Paul is talking about judgment at the end time,the appointed time upon Christ 2nd return 1 Cor 4:5
        The bible does not forbid Christian and I repeat that again The bible does not forbid Christian to judge, but it call upon Christian to judge . Luke 12:57 John 7:24 Rom 15:14 1 COR2:15 6:1-6 10:15 2 COR13:5 Phil 1:9 Col 1:9 1John 4:1
        Just as God is a righteous judge, Christian is expected to show discrimination and judgment in matters of His conserns. It is our responsibility , duty , and obligation to judge. We should judge all wrongs, condemn sins and take a stand, Christians should have not fear to oppose injustice , immorality, and all vice. No, judging others is not just a Christian principle , it is a biblical Command and it is only right to do so .

  • RQ

    The basis for Rob’s argument is faulty. Because someone does not want to be alone does that mean the rule should change? Because culture has change does that mean its ok. I believe that’s our greatest problem. We feel the need to change God’s view because men are changing. We have become our own gods

  • Marcos Camargo E Silva

    Excelent Andrew Wilson. I am so sorry Rob Bell thinks that way, his arguments are falty and based on what he believes alone – we have to accept that! But we do not have to please people in order to say that we love God. Jesus did not please everyone. He stated the truth and he was firm on that, all the way till death. For me, it does not matter if we see the whole world doing some thing and just because of that we may accept. I just have to look and see what the Bible tells me…

  • Owen Banton

    I’ve listened to Rob Bell over the years and loved his inspiring messages, and I think he has been a blessing to the body of Christ. But what I heard him saying on this interview was so sad to hear. I urge those who listen to this to pray for Rob Bell because this kind of mix up message isn’t scriptural as Andrew Wilson said so clearly to Rob and the viewing/listening audience. Let hold him in our heart and pray that he comes out of darkness into the light of truth of GOD WORD.

    I leave you fellow believers with this scripture:

    Gal 1:8 “Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you.”(

    But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! (NET)

    I want Rob heart to turn back to God, Amen

    Romans 12:1-2 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, and beg of you in view of [all] the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies [presenting all your members and faculties] as a living sacrifice, holy (devoted, consecrated) and well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable (rational, intelligent) service and spiritual worship.

    2 Do not be conformed to this world (this age), [fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs], but be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind [by its new ideals and its new attitude], so that you may prove [for yourselves] what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

    • Prayer Sister

      Lord we lift up our brother Rob to you. We ask that you grant us all your Holy Spirit that will guide us to the truth and forgive us as we trespass against you. May your storehouse of wisdom be poured out on all who view this site and may we all see SIN for SIN.

    • CurioustoTruth

      I’m sorry, but the context of Galatians 1:8 has to do with circumcision, not homosexuality. Paul even makes a comment regarding those “False” teachers to castrate themselves… not a very Christ-like thing to say; although the context was an impassioned sense of Christ’s grace to live free of the law that brings death and unto the Spirit that gives life… just sayin…

      • corrinne

        Galatians 1:8 has to do with preaching a false gospel in any form, not just circumcision.

      • scootr1295

        Curious,
        And please, sir, tell me, and everybody else on this thread just what was not very Christ-like about his comment! This brother is appealing to Scripture and the need to preach the gospel, part of which includes repentance from sin–to include the sin of homosexuality. Please tell me: are you a Rob Bell supporter or a Jesus follower? Are you afraid of siding with and identifying with the truth? The truth is narrow, by definition. The truth IS exclusive, by definition.

  • Glenn Randall

    Rob Bell demonstrates subjective analysis and reasoning. Bell’s problem is that Truth is not subjective. God’s Word, which Mr. Bell once claimed to teach, is totally objective. Societies, cultures, shifting moral compasses, etc., change unpredictably. That is one reason why the Holy Scriptures are priceless and timeless. God has revealed Himself–His character and nature–to mankind. He and His Word have been accepted or rejected from the time Moses, by the Holy Spirit, gave the Torah, until John received The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Bell rejects the authority of Scripture. He rejects the witness of Church history. Relativism is fatal. For proof, we need look no farther than Mr. Bell.

  • Kristin

    I too have loved Rob Bell’s past video series and illustrations, and my heart breaks to hear him weaken and dissect God’s Word on this this issue being sinful. Don’t get me wrong; the sin of homosexuality is no different from the sin of those who judge homosexuality. But the Bible is VERY clear on this issue. Yes, we live in a culturally different world where homosexuality is commonly acceptable, where as two generations ago it was shameful (at least in the Western world). But you can’t tell me that the culture that we live in that finds it acceptable is any different than past cultures that accepted it (Gomorrah, Sodom, Greece). The only thing I agree with with Rob is the fact that our response to homosexuals we encounter or know can push them away from Christ. Not because we believe a clear command in the Bible, but because of the judgment we exercise. In my opinion, the body of Christ (the church) should spend more energy on living and promoting the character of Christ – everything else (including our responses to cultural trends that oppose the Bible’s commands) will fall into place, and God will use the mouthpieces (people) He knows can best speak His heart on issues.

    • amos8

      Can you please explain, “…the sin of those who judge homosexuality.”?

      “Who” are those people, exactly, that judge homosexuality?

      And what does it mean to “judge homosexuality”?

      Isn’t that what this video and comment section is filled with? Please clarify for me.

      • CurioustoTruth

        amos8, I can appreciate your need for clarification. I feel the proverbial waters are mirky with the “MUD” that gets stirred up in the discussion (I know I’ve stirred some “Mud” into the mix myself) There are a lot of assertions as to what truth is here and I find it’s important to say “Prove It”, even to my own assumptions.

        I find the definition of “Who” in this case as you refer to people as those who have entrusted themselves with God’s throne of Judgment here on earth. Who, base this sacred trust on definition alone, not through a divine office or with heavenly credentials to do so, having no true entitlements to reason God’s final verdicts….Yet do so anyway.

        I find the definition of “Judge Homosexuality” (at least here) as a verdict with eternal weight now and later; equivocally pronouncing a definition to the issue and the immediate action of Justifiable punishment… much like the Salem Witch trials… Eeek – their a gay…”Burn them at the stake.”

        Why are we so eager to point out Sin and it’s definition in one area and not equally abhor our own preferences and allowances. Why aren’t we tackling Christians in malls when their skirts are too short, shirts too tight and latte’s too sweet. I won’t gloss over the scriptures denouncements of all sin based upon the law, but I will also not stand for unreasonable responses regarding Christ’s Grace and His Mercy in very similar circumstances. We may discern definition, but we may not assert His Justification and His choices based on definition alone. The reasoning for this is based on His Sovereignty (at least in my opinion of what “Sovereignty” implies), as well as Christs examples and many from the Old Testament scriptures as well (referring to God’s change of heart/mind/will)

        It is the war of words amos8… but I feel it’s worth sticking out the fire and the fuel, what remains will be the gold, jewels and precious gems…

        • scootr1295

          Curious,
          I’m a pastor and we’re going through a series on the book of Acts. Two weeks ago, I gave a message on Acts 2. One of the observations I pointed out there is in Peter’s first sermon, is the love of God is not present in this message! Not one word! Only this: the death and resurrection of Christ and YOU put Him on it.

          The result? God the Holy Spirit used Peter’s words and 3000 entered the Kingdom of God that day.

          The next week (last Sunday), enter Acts 3-4. Again, Peter preached the death and resurrection of Jesus and blamed them for putting Jesus on the cross. Where’s the love? No where to be found here. Words of judgment and “get right with God now”. And 2000 came into the kingdom.

          Curious, I’m afraid that we have so watered down the all powerful gospel by allowing those outside the kingdom of God to define love that if we preach ONE IOTA of truth, then we are viewed as hating people. We are called to be witness of Jesus Christ–and we WILL get pushback. Didn’t our Lord Jesus say something about the world HATING him? And didn’t He say something about His faithful followers being hated by the world as well?

          Since when did God tell us that we need to capitulate to the viewpoint and way of the world? Jesus said that we WILL have opposition? I don’t know about you, but even if NO ONE EVER comes to Jesus, through my witness, and I’m doing everything I can to be faithful to Him, then I will hear “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

          These are matters of eternal life and eternal death. How dare we water down the message in order to spare the feelings of certain people?

          • http://www.facebook.com/bob.davis.90038882 Bob Davis

            The Word of God brings conviction to push us to change to obey His will. I believe that as a church we have forgotten that those outside of it are sinners, and sinners sin, regardless of what the Word says. Conviction can be unpleasant and many in society simply want to be accepted for who or what they are, regardless of what God says. It would be like a Hindu telling me to live like them when I have no desire to.

          • Billy Ford

            Interesting that you bring this up. I’m a pastor, too, and I was shocked last week to discover that the word “love” doesn’t appear one single time in the whole book of Acts! I was preparing a sermon and I was trying to find a verse that I thought was in Acts that had “love” in it. I found that no form of the word agape is in there anywhere (except Acts 15:25 agapetois translated in NIV as “dear friends”). Of course, there are plenty of descriptions of love being “acted” out, but it astounds me that the word itself is absent.

          • CurioustoTruth

            You have a great pastor’s heart. It’s interesting to note the context of the passage you are preaching from. The anticipation of being recipients of God’s promised “Power of the Holy Spirit”. The timidity, fear of ridicule, desire to witness that preceded the event. Following that experience, Peter was a new person; bold, confident and righteously indignant: speaking, “We are not drunk as you suppose.” It was a scandalous moment of sorts.

            50 days past Passover, This, “Pentecost” was a recent experience for all who would have been present. This Jesus whom was crucified would have been public knowledge. The reminder of what happened to Christ, considering His recent ministry alongside the miracle of tongues / “reversal of babel” / everyone hearing the praises of God in their own language. Much of this would have brought about a Holy fear and deep sense of reverence for the Miraculous; Judgement would be better understood as conviction.

            This chapter should not be read in isolation of the whole story and the bigger picture. The life and lessons of Jesus, and the rest of the book of Luke and Acts. When I study this, I come to a differing view of Judgement.

            What I fail to see in this passage is the exclusive message of Judgment, though present through response to the miracle, included all people in on God’s plan. Not only did 3000 people believe that day, but they received the gift of God’s power to live a Christ like life and a boldness to witness or “martyr” for the cause for which Christ came. Later in the story, Peter goes to the Gentiles and includes them in on God’s promise,… stating that we cannot call unclean what God calls clean; that The promise is for all of us. non-exclusive.

            So, something to chew on; at least for this topic.

            Thanks.

        • scootr1295

          One more thing. Homosexuality is only one sin. It’s not unpardonable. Heterosexual sin is just as heinous in God’s eyes, as is the sins of greed, which is idolatry, slander, outbursts of anger, lying, etc. All carry the same weight. And so, Curious, I’m with you 1000% regarding pointing those sins out as well–and treating them with the same abhorrence as every other sin. And the cross of Jesus makes it possible for spiritually dead people to be made spiritually alive–to include homosexuals and heterosexual offenders. That’s what makes the gospel such good news! No one is excluded. But we MUST treat all sin as damnable, to include homosexuality.

    • Jtb

      Thanks Kristin.
      A voice of reasoned response amidst those who live in glass houses and throw stones- what about the logs in our own eyes? We may not endorse the practice of homosexuality or even understand those with same-sex attraction, but just throwing out Scripture as a negative weapon does the body of Christ no good and merely endorses the ‘Gay Lobby’s’ (plural) contention that ‘the Church’ and therefore God hates gays! Nowhere do I read in Scripture that homosexuality is the ‘unpardonable sin’ but it seams to have been picked out by many Christians as such – what about the other sexual sins and the hidden sins that Christ Jesus was more concerned about? What about the sin of pride which ultimately says ‘no’ to God and His gift of salvation?
      Whilst I appreciate that many strident views are probably a reaction against the ‘gay is normal’ propaganda saturation of the western media, I do think that we Christians need to try to understand more about this issue before we make ill-informed and un-Christian pronouncements – Christ came to save sinners – and that’s Good News!
      Blessings Jtb

      • disqus_qp63vPqQEF

        and sinners cannot be saved apart from truth. The problem is , until we acknowledge homosexual relationships as sinful, no one is going to be saved from it. Christians are not the ones who made the judgement that sodomy is an abomination. God made that judgement. Its our responsibility to stand for His truths.

    • scootr1295

      Kristin, my heart breaks for Rob Bell as well. But I do have a question: how is judging homosexuality a sin? Declaring something is sinful because the Bible declares it to be sinful is not a sin :)

      But I must take a Little issue with you here. I see your struggle. But when someone identifies themselves as homosexual, and we simply say what the Bible says, they will, naturally say they feel judged, because they will take it to mean that we are condemning their identity–and that gets personal. The way I see it, there is really no way around a homosexual feeling bad about himself or herself. God had declared this to be evil, not us. We can be as compassionate as we can be, but there WILL be messiness here. But the question we MUST answer is this: do we say nothing to spare their feelings, or do we stand for the love and truth of God and risk pushback from a homosexual? We are called to be Jesus’ witnessess. Why else are we here?

      • chris

        Amen! We can be supportive and be empathetic. Fact of the matter is that God does not want same sex couples to be together at all. God does not make junk.

        Rob Bell definitely needs prayer for him and his family and friends.

  • glenstephen

    Rob Bell has been off track for a long time,however many did not see it because falsehood was wrapped up in truth.He has a postmodern viewpoint. Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

  • Gilbert Shea

    Rob Bell got destroyed here. Homosexuality is evil, sinful, and disgusting, and Rob Bell is a heretic that is taking others to Hell with him.

    • CurioustoTruth

      Matthew 21:23, I wonder how Jesus might caution your tongue…

      • CurioustoTruth

        and Mathew 21:31

        • CurioustoTruth

          When will we realize we can be the wicked farmers Jesus is talking about…

          • scootr1295

            I would like to hear more about your view on this–how is it that when Gilbert gives his opinion–which I agree with–that we can be the wicked farmers Jesus is talking about. Isn’t the statement in this verse dealing with actually doing the will of the master? How is rejecting homosexuality NOT doing the will of our master?

  • Gilbert Shea

    I really wonder if Rob Bell is a closet Homosexual.

    • john ellis

      Actually the evidence is that those who are vehemently anti gay are often closet homosexuals. In the UK we have this year had the example of a catholic Cardinal – leader of the church in Scotland and ferociously anti gay. He resigned after it became known that he had sexually assaulted young priests.

  • Njihia Daniel

    if you Rob Bell talking like that you are leading people to hell and belittling God of heaven

  • Rob Orton

    Just like there is a sucker born every minute, they turn into idiots and then go on the internet to show everyone. Rob Bell needs our prayers

  • Stunned

    Wilson: …Would you say Paul & Jesus weren’t referring to OT prohibitions or that Jesus did say those things but was merely a child of his times?

    Bell: That’s a really deep question! I’d have to think more about that.

    WHAT!?!?!?!?! Bell claims to be a teacher of the faith on this issue and is considering this “deep, thick” question for the first time?? He want’s to break with nearly 2000 years of Christian teaching but hasn’t thought about the Scriptural explanation for why he is teaching differently?? He clearly has no use for the Word of God. One more enthusiast Satan is using to sift Christ’s Church like wheat.

    I’m suddenly very glad that I haven’t wasted a single moment of my life reading Bell or listening to him speak before today.

  • Stunned

    That should be “He wants to break…”

  • JSimpson

    i am saddened by Bell’s stance and grateful for Wilson’s firm stance for Truth! Bell looks cynical and arrogant…so so so sad, given the platform he has.

  • Dan

    Rob Bell, when he saw he had no way to defend himself, victimized himself. He became the victim. The interviewer and Andrew Wilson became the villians. Rob Bell is clearly a heretic. This happens when someone who wants to be unique or different so much that he/she takes on the spirit of anarchy. Sad.

  • Andrew

    The Bible condemns homosexuality. That is timeless and you cannot change that.

  • jontrott

    Gee, I wish Andrew Wilson would have more quickly tumbled to the precise question that would have cleared away some of this: “Do you, Pastor Bell, believe that *as long as it is monogamous* a same sex marriage is without sin before God?” That’s Bell’s belief, from what I can tell. I happen to disagree with him on that, holding more to (if I understand him) Dr. Wilson’s view.

    • mkdb

      What Bell’s belief about your question is, in one way, irrelevant (not that it is not a good question, it is more about the underlying belief.) RB believes ____ today about that question, but it will be something else in a matter of time. Why? Because he believes in “Culture over Scripture.” What key segments of “the culture” believe have more authority than God’s written Word. That is what is behind RB, Brian McLaren, the Emergent Church, etc.

      • jontrott

        Hmm… while I agree that *at times* culture over Scripture is what leads to sexual license among believers, I’d caution you and myself as well that we too tend to inject cultural bias into Scripture which wasn’t there before we arrived (hehehe). As a mild to moderate post-modernist, I find some of what the Emergent folk say quite compelling, while (esp. on the issue of homosexuality) I think they go too far. In America we’re in addition struggling with the whole civil edge of this matter, and by “civil” I mean the government’s laws regarding same-sex relationships. I’m perhaps a lonely voice on what I see as a compromise that maintains biblical integrity yet also “love my gay neighbor.” And that is, to assent to the right of my neighbor to marry who he or she wishes to marry, despite my own misgivings theologically. One law for the Church, one law for the nation. I am not clear enough on British law to say anything even remotely intelligent on how you all handle it. ;-)

        • corrinne

          we can legalize anything we want, however, does legalizing sin make sin ok? The church is not a powerful influence in our nation because we allow the culture to change it, rather than the message of the Gospel changing the culture.

          • jontrott

            Corrinne, good question. My own take on this is that esp. in America, the Church’s greatest sin is the mixing of Christian faith with an idolatrous nationalism. The entire world sees Evangelicalism as synonymous with a particullarly virulent form of nationalism. I think the best approach to my non-christian neighbor is to approach him / her with no “culture wars” weapons in my hands. Surrender our political atteempts to vote Christian morality into being when, in fact, it is not there. Our morality is not what Jesus told us to spread. The Gospel is what we’re to carry ’round the world. If my gay neighbor asks me what I think of his homosexuality, I am not going to tell him why God judges it. Rather, I’m going to explain Lordship, that the Scriptures tell me the way sexuaity and anything else I struggle with can only be transformed if I make Christ the burning Center of my desires, thoughts, and actions. I will tell him of Christ’s Gentleness and Love. I will tell Him that for me there is no hope in the Uniiverse but the love of Christ and the calling of Christ to “Come, follow me.” Homosexuality is not the issue. Jesus is the issue. All else must flow from that. In short, gay marriage being legal is a done deal in America… and I think our real primary task as Christians is to lead others to Christ while also maintaining a moral example to the watching world. I have a pastor who was as a young man actively gay; today, he has two daughters and is married. But that does not validate his faith. His faith is validated by his hunger to do the will of God, and how does one legislate the heart? To be absolutely clear, I do believe the Scriptures define marriage as the place where our genital sexuality is fully expressed; sexuality is meant to be both relational and ecstatic. And that one flesh relationship is meant to be between a man and a woman. The Church ourselves should and must bear witness to marriage as biblically defined… but do so by *living* that example not just carrying placards about it or shouting at gay folk’s sins. We have plenty of sexual dysfunction of our own to deal with. “Let judgement begin with the house of God.”

          • Steve Smith

            If people don’t recognize their actions as sinful, then of course it’s legal from the stanpoint of man’s law, which always changes. God’s law (love, grace, and repentence) never changes. If one does not recognize that sinful behavior is disobedience to God, one cannot be in a right relationship with Christ Jesus. We as Christians know how the story ends, and biblical prophecy is certainly being fulfilled.

        • scootr1295

          I would ask, define love. God defines love as obedience to His revealed will. The Scriptures are clear re: the plain teaching of sexual immorality. Certainly, if we include the passage in Ezekiel about the sin of Sodom being inhospitality, then we can interpolate that homosexuality is not a sin, but hating on one’s neighbor was the key issue. And when I ask my gay neighbor what love is, he or she would say that I need to affirm, and not just tolerate a lifestyle God says is an abomination. If I don’t affirm it, then, according to my gay neighbor then I’m not loving him or her as myself, and therefore violating part of the Great Commandment.

          However, if out of love FOR GOD, I’m trying to tell my gay neighbor what God says about homosexuality, then he or she would define that as hating.

          It seems to me that we have it backwards in the church, regardless of the country or culture. We seem to think that those outside the Kingdom of God correctly define what love is. And if we don’t paint a picture about love in the way they define it, then they will not only reject our picture, but they will accuse us of not loving them. Since when does the world have it right and we in the church have it wrong? Isn’t the core meaning of holiness, “other”? And if it means “other”, then one would naturally expect that God’s definition of love would be something other than what those who are outside of His kingdom would see it as.

          The problem in the church is that we are too quick to agree with those outside the kingdom of God, and re-define love in the way THEY see it, rather than hold to what God has always said about love–to include homosexuality.

          • For Thought

            Yes, The Bible says a part of Salvation is repentance. Repentance is seeing it God’s way and resolving to turn from my point of view and convictions and making God’s Word my priority. When Paul addresses the believers and mentions a list of sin (1 Cor 6:11 – There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.) he says WERE just like that. The statement is that we are to let God change us to be an example of what God’s standard is not how we can make everyone feel. The world is in confusion because christians who have no definition of God’s will for a changed person ultimately will be left to culture or human logic to decide the conviction of God. We live by FAITH not by feelings. God’s Word is our guide no matter how culture changes or decides their morals.

  • Elle

    Watched the whole thing today, Bell is either nervous or had moments of this look like, “Oh, holy crud maybe I’m wrong”, but still grasps at straws…. pretty sad

  • Christopher S. Olson

    I really wonder if anyone from this website or in the comments has notice that this is not a debate. That didn’t happen in this video, it was more of a discussion. The last five minutes wasn’t even about homosexuality and the Bible and more about whether churches will be civil with one another. ChurchLeaders should be ashamed of themselves for misrepresenting the content of this video to gain traffic and comments.

    • Nacho Libre

      A debate, by definition, is a discussion on a topic in which two views (or arguments) are put forward. This is exactly what this video is.

  • Chris Harris

    2 Timothy 3:16 states that everything contained in scripture is God breathed. It comes from Him and Him alone. Therefore, if scripture states that homosexuality is wrong, then it’s wrong…period. There is no debate on it! We love the person…yes…but we can’t condone the life of sin.

    Hebrews 13:8 also mentions that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever – it doesn’t say that He changes with the cultural times. If we are to clothe ourselves in Christ (Romans 13:14) then should we not live our life just like his? Follow his commands and directions? We should NEVER EVER compromise scripture to ‘fit’ our own beliefs, wants or desires. It’s exegesis people, not eisegesis.

  • gr

    If one calls himself “Christian” yet is guided more by the world’s standards and new way of thinking that opens the door to a world view … and putting God’s standards on a shelf then that man is not a Christian. Christianity is about being a follower of Christ, having a relationship with him alone, and following his principles and instruction PERIOD. Some day the very God who made him will ask … “what happened to you? What caused u to stumble and disobey my word …? A fair question indeed. Rob Bell continues to fall and his credibility is being crushed … and he is doing it all by himself. So sad indeed.

  • amos8

    Rob Bell (and his wife) declared in a Christianity Today article 10 YEARS AGO that he “discovered” that the Bible is NOT a “divine” product, rather, it is a “human product.”

    Yet it did not seem to alarm too many people at the time. The “writing was on the wall.”

    Since then many have been warning the church about RB and his
    “ideology” and his emergent church for 10 years + … and getting
    attacked for it.

    And today people are finally in an uproar?

    Why didn’t more people see this coming? Why didn’t more people care this much back then?

    • chris

      I’ve never heard of this guy before and he is so very lost. The Bible is Gods word and is a divine book most definitely. Rob needs prayer big time.

      • amos8

        He is exceedingly popular, has sold millions of books, has sold millions of videos, and continues to undermine God’s Word at an increasing rate. There will always be “Rob Bells”–and yes, we should pray for him–but we should also pray that the church grows in discernment (Phil 1:9; Heb 5:14) and is equipped to deal with the “Rob Bells’ inside (and outside) of the church.

        • Mar Komus

          I remember watching the “nooma” videos, which were mostly WELL done and I liked them! But these turns he’s taken… blech…

          • amos8

            I’ll give him that, RB is highly skilled. But I think his beliefs have not changed all that much. If you go back and watch them again (not literally) I believe that you would see these same beliefs. He was just much more subtle then. He is just coming out more now (pun intended).

  • dr.keithcox

    Well in fact the Bible doesn’t say anything about “homosexuality” if we think of that as gender identity, as if God created more than two genders. Gender identity is a twentieth-century concept. If we enter the debate against same-sex marriage on the basis of gender identity, we have already lost the argument; because we are agreeing that “homosexual” is a natural, genetic reality, the same as “male” and “female.” This ought to be seen as ridiculous without any further logical appeal, but, as Mr. Bell so aptly points out, that’s not the world we live in.

    In my understanding there is plenty of research examining predisposition to same-sex relationships among identical twins to strongly suggest that whatever it is that causes same-sex attraction, it is probably not genetic. When the Bible refers to homosexual behavior, it does so in the context of *behavior*, not genetic predisposition. None of the Bible writers could have imagined what we think of as homosexuality in terms of gender identity.

    The Bible addresses homosexual behavior in the context of sexual immorality. The Bible makes it plain that one can be sexually immoral with a partner of the same or opposite sex and consistently condemns it throughout the Old and the New Testaments. Of course, the Bible condemns all sin, and yet we all sin, so one ought not to be condemned by Christians for sinning.

    But at the same time, being baptized into the life of Christ, we ought to strive to live the moral standards God expects of His holy people. These too, are clearly laid out in scripture. None of us can accomplish this alone, it is the Holy Spirit within who transforms us into the likeness of Christ. But He doesn’t do so without our cooperation. Paul tells us that we are no longer slaves to sin, but only if we are slaves to righteousness (Ro. 6:22). Even though all Christians sin, a Christian cannot persist in sin. This means a Christian cannot choose an immoral life “style.”

    I cannot believe that the challenges facing the Church today concerning the issue of sexual immorality are any worse than those faced by the first century Christians. Paul mentions sexual immorality as something to be avoided in a number of places. He would not have mentioned it if it were not a problem. What we can learn from the first-century Church is that they didn’t try to appease the forces of immorality in the pagan culture that surrounded them. They condemned heresy wherever they saw it, and they were willing to die to remain true to God’s standard for His holy people as best as they could understand it.

    At the same time they didn’t try to transform the culture around them. When we read about the rampant sexual immorality (and just plain immorality) in Corinth, we never read about Paul urging the Church at Corinth to mount an anti-immorality campaign in their neighborhoods. Instead we read about him admonishing the disciples to remain true to their calling. And, interestingly, this was the time of the most explosive growth in the Church’s history.

    One cannot be both a Christian and a pagan. If one chooses a pagan life “style,” one cannot be a Christian. But once baptized into Christ, the allure of paganism is exposed for its emptiness. The Spirit within begins the slow and painful process of sanctification. If our non-Christian brothers and sisters do not have the life of the Spirit, we cannot expect them to be transformed into the likeness of Christ. Let us therefore remain true to Christ, and let the world see the difference for itself.

    • http://thewaytheballbounces.blogspot.com BallBounces

      Well said. Thank you.

  • sandy/mothersandy

    I enjoyed the debate. It was full of facts and done with class. I could not help but see the uneasiness coming from Rob Bell. It seems as if he begin to get restless, agitated and disturbed by the facts coming out of the word of God concerning homosexaul and the gay lifestyle. It is the not that God rejects those who have those types of lust of flesh. He wants those to come to him, repent as any other sexual immoral person would. Yet , God had a standard of men/women being together to complement one another.

    He is the creator he knows what is good and what is evil. So how does the clay say to the potter? I don’t like what you have molded me to be! ( i desire to be this way, I don’t like your way, I think or believe according to my own desires of my heart and lust and passions that my way is the better way! Can the clay say to the Potter, I know I was marred, but I want to stay marred?..Can the clay say to the Potter leave me alone let me shape myself, and paint myself and place myself where ever I see fit? We are not who we are based on us being the clay? or part of a culture or race.

    We are who we are based on the one who (created us) the one who (made us) the one (who breathe the breath of life into Adam and then man became a (living soul) We are who we are because of him (we live) and because of him we have our being.

    Rob Bell kept saying it the culture now, that is the way it is now…(no God word never changes, he means what he said then and he means what he is saying now

    . Sin is still Sin ..iniquity is still iniquity …transgressions are still transgression…and they all require repentance and turning away from those things…dying to the old man sinful nature of man, the carnal nature of man, and (being renewed with the spirit of holiness) becoming a (new creature in christ jesus) it is a process.

    When you accept Jesus as (your Lord and Savior) that means you give him permission to be your ruler your Lord to govern you life, to take hold of the (helm or steering wheel of your life) . You can’t say ok lord I want you to be my LORD, but (wrestle him everyday over who will steer the ship) NO that is insanity…he is the captain of our souls, the bishop of our soul, he is then become (our high priest) he is our Great Shepherd of our Souls. Is he our LORD or NOt? is the question.

    Many want Jesus, but they want the world too! Many want Jesus but they want to be able to do what they still want to do. Studying the word of God says: (we must all take up our cross and follow Jesus) that no man having put his hand to the plow, and (looks back) is worthy for the kingdom of God. You can’t keep holding on to pass desires and passions and lust of flesh, and lust of eyes, and pride of life…Knowing God is knowing (his voice) those that hear his voice…(hear the truth) who is the truth? Jesus said: ( I am the WAY , THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE) and other way you choose to enter in (being Jesus for he said I am the door no man comes unto the Father God (except through me)..

    So Jesus is the only DOOR! the only WAY! the only TRUTH! the only LIFE!….no matter what man says or how he tries to change his word, to fit their own (private lifestyles or agendas or motives ) they can not. Jesus said I am the same yesterday, today and forever!

    He always speaks holiness, being pure being santified, not mixing and mingling with idolatry or religions or traditions that are man made…..

    He always suggest and tells us to (come out from among them) don’t be like the heathen or pagans or idolaters….how are we different? if we keep practicing living the same way we did, before we came to Jesus Christ? and keep willing doing after we accept Christ? what has changed?..you serve him with your lips yes! but no with a change of your heart! In your lips you are very close! but in your hearts you are very far! *Matthew 15:8 verse and *Mark 7:21-23 verses

    Everyone that comes to Jesus first of all always meets the GREAT PHYSICIAN…why? because he knows when we come from the world, we have been diseased, tainted, polluted, sick minded, afflicted, bound, mentally ill, tormented, entagled, enslaved, in bondage, in prisoned soul-tied with infirmites and afflictions of our souls and spirits and bodies.

    He comes to DELIVER US…HEAL US…SET US FREE….so we can really begin living freely in his spirit and learning about the TRUTH THAT ONLY FLOWS FROM HIS WISDOM KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING AND REVELATION OF THE WORD! GOD IS HIS WORD, JESUS IS THE WORD,,THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE WORD! WHY IS THE SPIRIT CALLED HOLY?

    AFTER ALL WHY IS THAT? BECAUSE HE IS MAKING YOU THINK? THERE IS A SPIRIT OF HOLINESS! AND THERE IS A SPIRIT OF UN HOLINESS! A SPIRIT THAT IS PURE! AND A SPIRIT THAT IS IMPURE! A SPIRIT THAT IS RIGHTEOUS! AND A SPIRIT THAT IS UNRIGHTEOUS. A SPIRIT OF TRUTH! AND A SPIRIT OF ERROR!…john chapter 4 v

    .WE ARE IN A SPIRITAL WARFARE (READ *EPHESIANS CHAPTER 6 10-20…2 *CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 10V:5

    TO…CASTING DOWN ALL IMAGINATIONS AND EVERY (HIGH THING) THAT TRIES TO EXALT (ITSELF AGAINST THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD)

    THERE ARE FALLEN SPIRITS THAT GO AROUND SEEKING HOMES VESSELS IN WHICH (TO LIVE IN) SPIRITS ARE (DISEMBODIED) THEY NEED YOUR BODY OR MINE TO (TAKE UP RESIDENCE IN) THEY NEED YOU BODY TO FULFILL THEIR OWN DESIRES AND LUST , BY USING YOUR FLESH. YOUR MIND, YOUR EYES, YOUR EARS, YOUR HANDS AND FEET AND YOUR LOINS TO GIVE BIRTH TO THEIR DECEITFUL LUST! YES THESE DARK SPIRITS OF SATAN USE YOU! TO FULFILL THEIR LUSTS THEY LIVE THEIR LIFES THROUGH EMBODIING YOU.

    THAT IS WHY THE WORD SAYS IN *ROMANS CHAPTER 12 V 1-2 PRESENT YOUR BODIES A (LIVING SACRIFICE HOLY AND ACCEPTABLE UNTO GOD)…you must find out what offering of yourself is pleasing unto God.

    He does not delight in any old type of offering lame and sick as sacrifice that are blemish or spotted as sacrifice, that are mix and mingled as a sacrifice.* Malachi chapter 1 verse 6-14 (God says how do you offer me something that is corrupted? or unclean?) how do you reject what i want to feed you?

    We as a people must read and pray and seek God’s face for ourselves…he will reveal the TRUTH to you if you are SINCERE in your HEART…and come HUMBLY before him he will not reject you ….he will draw you even nearer with his LOVE and with his KINDNESS. Are you confused today in your choice of LOVE?…are you GAY? are you confused? about being Gay?

    * God says he is: NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION.* I Corinthians 14:33. So whY then do you think you feel some confusion? Why is there so much confusion between the gays and the straights. Because there are 2 spirits at war! Because God is revealing himself to you. and you feel the TRUTH TUGGING AT THE HEART OF YOUR DOORS.

    Something (which is a spirit) a familiar spirit a fallen spirit that knows the word of God. but yet does not (follow the word of God) demons know the name of Jesus and when they hear it they (tremble) *James 2:19.. tells you its ok, God understands, he doesn’t really care what you do behind closed doors! wow! that is the greatest deception and lie of all times…God does care and he tugs at our hearts to overcome evil with good. Not to subcumb to doing evil, but to overcome by the Blood of the Lamb, and by our testimony of goodness and mercy of God’s great deliverance out of (darkness into his marvelous light)!

    IT IS TIME TO MAKE A CHANGE, GOD IS HOLY AND IN HIM IS NO SHADOW OF TURNING HE HAS IN HIM NO DARKNESS AT ALL.. HE IS PURE FULL OF GLORY AND GOODNESS AND MERCY AND COMPASSION AND BLESSING…GOD IS WAITING FOR YOU. IF YOU NEED TO CALL ON GOD…TO MAKE A CHANGE PRAY THE SINNERS PRAYER:

    *ROMAN CHAPTER 10 8-14 …AND *JOHN 3 VERSE 16 THAT GOD SENT HIS (ONLY BEGOTTEN SON) THAT WHOSOEVER (BELIEVES) AND CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD) SHALL NOT (PERISH) BUT SHALL HAVE (EVERLASTING LIFE). IF YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT YOUR SALVATION TODAY? CRY OUT TO JESUS TO SAVE YOU AND CONFESS YOUR SINS THAT YOU BEEN LIVING ACCORDING TO WHAT YOUR DESIRES DICTATED. THAT YOU ACCEPT HIM AS LORD AND SAVIOR OVER YOU LIFE TODAY AND FOREVER MORE! GOD BLESS YOU AND MAY THE LORD GIVE YOU STRENGTH AND BLESS YOU WITH PEACE…PSALMS 29 V11.

    ALL GLORY HONOR AND PRAISE GO TO OUR WONDERFUL CREATOR ALMIGHTY GOD..ELOHIM…JEHOVAH…EL SHADDI….JESUS OUR LORD KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS TO HIM BE THE GLORY THE HONOR AND ALL THE POWER NOW AND FOREVER MORE!

    AMEN

    seek truth Jesus said he is the Father of Truth and Satan is the Father of lies!

    so who you going to believe?

    sandy

    • Mar Komus

      You had us in the first two paragraphs or so :)

  • R Joslin

    I believe Christians need to use the same terminology the Bible uses, and it doesn’t use “homosexuality”. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 state that a man shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind. This is defining a behavior of one gender lying with the same gender (or animals, etc.). Leviticus actually says those that do should be put to death. So, even if someone has a sex-change, they are still genetically their original gender, and the behaviour that follows is an abonination (Leviticus 18:22). There is no room for “interpretation” of these scriptures, nor for “social acceptance” around today. It was happening in Sodom & Gomorra and God said it wasn’t right then, and today should be no exception. God’s word is clear and steady on this topic from begining to end. Christians who accept it, endorse it, or don’t condemn it cannot claim to be doing what God has declared to be right. You can love the person but you have to hate the behavior.

    • Steve Smith

      The KJV does not use the term “homosexual,” but other, more literal, English translations of the Bible do, in fact, use the term “homosexual and homosexuality.” We Christians need to stop using the terms that the world uses (gay, lesbian, LGBT, etc.) and call it what the terms the Bible does use.

      1 Corinthians 6:9-10: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (ESV)
      1 Timothy 1:8-11: 8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,[b] liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound[c] doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted. (ESV)

      • John Ellis

        Grief if ‘greedy’ Christian are ruled out …oh dear

    • John Ellis

      2000 verses command social justice…why don’t we hear Christians getting fired up about that

      • chris

        Actually Christians do get all fired up about social justice – all over the world.

        • john ellis

          Great…but all the public hears is them banging on about homosexuality

  • Paul Beck

    Homosexual behavior is but one of many sins, sexual and otherwise, that are very destructive (of the spirit, soul & body). Our message should be that God tells us up front how to have a good life, so we don’t have to experiment with all kinds of false trails. He only prohibits what is harmful – can we trust Him? The church should not only teach, but more importantly, MODEL this lifestyle of harmony with God – the most beautiful relationship ever!

  • Pastor Joe

    Oh the pathetic pontificating that looms in this discussion.

    ……and about all of those little church ladies that wear garments woven of multiple threads.

    • Mar Komus

      apples and oranges

  • Rick

    Hi R Joslin . . . Some people focus on the Leviticus text and say it is no longer in effect due to Jesus and the new testament. Having said this, Paul is definitely clear in Romans re: homosexuality being an abomination. There is no wiggle room. God’s laws are for our own benefit, not to be mean to us. As an all wise, loving Creator, if he says “no” . . . I say “no” and those representing Biblical Truth must also say “no”

  • rightness

    God made Adam and Eve ,not Adam and Steve,they say this is a joke but is it God destroyed two cities because of it,and there is still Gods law ,you can debate it all you want too its still not going to change it,even Jesus said that we must obey Gods law.and it a moral law as well, and now they are doing there best to shove this on us and make a wrong look right ,and what right look wrong and if you check your Bible it says the same thing will happen . and the so called ACLU is one of the worst to do this.

    • John Ellis

      There are a handful of verses in the bible that even mention homosexuality….and 2000 that mention social justice. Nowhere is it said that that is WHY Sodom nad Gomorrah were destroyed reads like gang rape to me. Ezekiel 16:49 suggests that it was because they didn’t care for the poor!

      • Tlcnpastor

        It was for all of their Evil but mainly for their child sacrifice and God had enough of it. Sin is sin. Homosexuality is sin, not helping when you can is evil extra. The Bible is fullllll of scripture that say’s it is evil, an abomination, sin, deviled ect. “Man exchanged sexual relations with one another as did woman and received in themselves the just due penalty” quit scribbling out verses everyone!

      • chris

        God loves everyone and the Bible is very clear about homosexuality that it is not ok. God definitely cares for the poor, the hungry, the homeless. He is there for you 24/7.

        • john ellis

          The Bible is also VERY CLEAR about greed and slander where are you going to stop. Can a greedy person not be a believer until they stop being greedy> yet greedy wealthy Christians are honoured in the Christian community and held up as examples ogf God’s blessing!!

      • amos8

        There is not a single verse that mentions “social justice”! (at least by the definition of today’s more politically correct, politically minded liberalism and trendy emergent church)

        • john ellis

          That is just nit picking. Of course the phrase social justice is not found in the bible – its just shorthand for a concept commanded throughout scripture. Bible scholars have identified 2000 references. Here in the UK when the ‘gay marriage’ bill was passed Christians were seen protesting outside parliament…where were they when the iniquitous ‘bedroom tax’ which has resulted in suicides was passed. What the heck is a trendy emergent church…hasn’t got here yet

          • amos8

            I did not mean to say that the Bible does not mention the “word” social justice, it does not mention the concept. The Bible does not teach social justice. It does not teach us to change society or our cities or our government. (of course, this all depends on what our definition is of SJ.)

            The book of Acts, as an example … and as THE example of the Church (the beginning, the foundation, the blueprint, etc), has zero verses or examples of “social justice.” The clear emphasis, as always, is changing hearts (through “preaching,” “teaching the Word,” “spreading the gospel,” etc), not changing cities (or what is temporary). SJ is NOT the gospel. (of course, “good works” like feeding the hungry, helping widows and orphans are all a part of–and should be a natural outcome of–the Christian life. However, the eternal (e.g. eternal life, redeemed hearts, reconciliation with God, etc) far outweighs the temporal.

            Notice that in the book of Acts that when many people in one city (Ephesus) where radically changed through the Word that the city (and leaders) rioted and wanted to kill the Christians. This is the natural response to the changed hearts of Christians.

            Furthermore, most Christian’s definition/understanding of SJ has to do with the government, not with serving others, helping the weak, etc.

            The trendy emergent church is essentially “movement” (their words) that makes liberalism/postmodernism cool for younger people (and some older ones) without really telling them (at least at first) what the true agenda is (strongly ANTI-conservative Christianity) and the underlying principles of the EC/liberalism.

            It is in the UK, but it often changes names because it is identified for what it is.

          • john ellis

            Well I guess Amos8 we will have to agree to disagree. I would just make one point. It is always dangerous my view to say this or that is not mentioned in this or that book of the Bible. Esther doesn’t mention God! Scripture is a unity I saw somebody on thread pointed out that love is not mentioned in Acts!!

            I have been what you call a pastor in the States in one of the most deprived communities in the UK for 40 years. You cannot operate in this kind of community without thinking deeply about issues of social justice. You have I think got massive issues with this in the States. I worked at a Church in South side Chicago for a month. I have never seen such destitution and poverty. I was appalled. yet a short ride on the L and you were in a land of huge houses SUVs and swimming pools.

            In the UK most churches have long deserted the inner city and moved to the suburbs where they are peopled by well heeled professionals. We bring the Gospel to this community AND fight for justice. The issues we have debated are very deep and seminal to the churches mission. Because the churches in this country have deserted the poor and sided with the rich their witness and are being sidelined. The same will happen in the States maybe its happening already. I have utterly disillusioned with evangelical Christianity in this country which has become a cosy club. The more I study the scriptures the more I am convinced that their much vaunted ‘Bible faith’ is based on a very selective reading of scripture

          • amos8

            John, I appreciate your reply, your honesty, and your tone–and your desire to minister to others and your concern for the poor.

            Some points of clarification are always need to be made (within one culture, not to mention with two [US ... UK]; let alone within one church, or home), especially with “social justice” and “the Gospel.” I’m not asking to solve this between the two of us .. and to solve it in this discussion, but, if I were you, I would always clarify these definitions–in my own heart and ministry–but in those I choose to partner with in ministry.

            What I find alarming (at least in the US) is that many churches, ministries, and individuals throw out those terms (especially SJ) but they do not know what they mean, and, perhaps more importantly, they join with others who have a functional definition that is entirely different than their own (and that of their church or ministry). So, because they have assumed agreement, they are now working with people with an agenda and ideology/theology that is contrary than their own!

            More and more there is a growing trend to change “the gospel” (1 Cor 15:1ff … the need to be saved from the eternal penalty of our sin … and to be clothed in His righteousness so we can be blessed with Him in eternity) into the “social gospel” (Gal 1:6-9). The “SG” is increasingly mixed with some level of works (either to earn salvation … or something along the lines of the gospel IS good works/changing our cities) while the gospel is always about what and why Jesus did on the cross for our eternal destiny. The other “works” mentioned are often great, but they are not the gospel. Yet there is a subtle transition out of the gospel of grace/faith and replacing it with various forms of works.

            Also, SJ is essentially a subtle yet rapid advance toward the government being in control of our finances …. and that the government(s) are the only one who can solve the problem of poverty. This is insanity. This thinking (however well-intended) has literally killed and imprisoned hundreds of millions … and furthermore, it has impoverished far more than were poor to begin with. Nevertheless, despite these historical facts, Christians (of all people) are insisting that it is a good thing if we give up our freedoms to the government!

            So, this is no minor matter. Please think this through and be aware of the counterfeit gospels. Blessings to you.

  • Min Dan

    This GUY is crazy and is in danger of “HELL FIRE” trying to change God’s commands.

    Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

    Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

    Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

    Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    Gen 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

    Gen 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

    Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

    Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. All scripture is from the KJV

  • askwwjd

    Romans 3:23. Why do we keep harping on ONE particular issue?I remember crying for 3 days when I actually decided to look up TRUTH for myself~in the absolute TRUTH of the Bible. All that matters is what GOD SAYS. If it is written, that is final. If I am unclear=I must ASK GOD to show me TRUTH. “For you will know the truth and be truth will set you free.”John 8:32. The truth may hurt, BUT consider this~JESUS paid it all~dying for everything issue we have. We are no longer slaves to our flesh. We are FREE!Satan wants you to forget this fact! If we are true believers IN CHRIST that is. Just take it to JESUS. He is the answer, not a counselor, not a preacher, not a godly friend, parent, medication,surgery, self-help books, JESUS brings the power to overcome~because HE HAS ALREADY OVERCOME THE WORLD! John 16:33. Time to face truth, it does not really even matter what we THINK~God is right we are wrong. Better to face the TRUTH now than on the day we face God on the throne. We will all be judged according to Scripture~and ignorance is not accepted.Romans 10:14-21. Remember God is love, yes, but HE is also a HOLY GOD, that cannot allow sin into HIS Kingdom. therefore we must seek JESUS to overcome our issues.

  • The Dr is in

    Please…Rob Bell’s ship sailed along time ago. God has not changed his mind regarding sexuality just because humanity has decided that sin is much more seductive today…Romans 1-2 have not changed in meaning and purpose, let alone the Old Testament injunctions. Sin is sin, no matter how you carve it up, and sinners do not inherit the Kingdom of God…end of discussion…some things are not open to interpretation…sin being the biggy, and homosexuality in all of its dirivitives isn’t either, no matter how affirming and accepting society is. Do we also then logically say that abortion is not a sin since society has affirmed it. Rob, you and Brian McLaren have opened the door? Affirm the one, you affirm them all!

  • rev pat

    God made all Living things. ALL living things were made by God. No matter who or what you are God made you. God did not make prejudices, man did for his own convenience or guilt. Whoever you are, whatever and whoever you love is the will of God. Love one another as I have loved you. God is Love. Live by love and heaven is yours. Satan is the inventor of prejudice. Not our Father in heaven.

    • http://thewaytheballbounces.blogspot.com BallBounces

      Great, because I really love my daughter, sister, brother-in-law, wife and dog. Not to mention myself! Thank you, Rev Pat for releasing me!

      • chris

        Sorry but Rob Bell is completely lost! He needs to repent and ask Gods forgiveness. The Bible is very clear on same sex relationships – it says man cannot lay with man – women either. Relationships are between a man and a woman and no other. Thats Gods word. I know gay people too but they don’t live that way. God still loves you – very much and he is there for you 24/7.

        • http://thewaytheballbounces.blogspot.com BallBounces

          Apparently my sarcasm was too subtle…

    • amos8

      Should we hate “sin” … should we hate “evil” … should we hate “every wrong path” … should we hate falsehood … as God instructs us to do in His written Word? If we do, are we not loving … are we not loving God and others?

    • http://thewaytheballbounces.blogspot.com BallBounces

      Of course, it helps if we let God define love, and understand love biblically.

  • dfg

    He is not walking in the truth. He needs to call Jesus Christ back, and repent for his sins. God never changes. Rob Bell, has been the way for so long. The point is: the church did not see. Now is open. Pray for him and his family. He looks so lost!!!!! Poor sheep!

    • CurioustoTruth

      Mirror, Mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all…

  • Brother Thomas L. Hopkins

    Homosexuality along with all sins are condemned in The Holy Bible.Sin seperates us from God Isaiah59:1-2.Men & women
    are lost,God doesn’t want us to be lost,Jesus came to seek & save the lost. Hearing &Believe Romans10:17.RepentLuke13:3.Confession Matthew10:32-33.Baptism Mark 16:15-16:for remission of sins Acts2:38.Remain faithful Revelation2:10.Heaven will be a prepared place for a prepared people.Hell is a prepared place for unprepared people.

  • http://thewaytheballbounces.blogspot.com BallBounces

    When Paul addresses homosexual behavior he warns us against being deceived. It seems many of us would rather be deceived than submit to the clear admonitions of Scripture. Walk in the light — don’t be a stumblebum.

  • chris

    Rob Bell is lost – the Bible is very clear and it is definitely sinful for same sex people to lay together – thats what the Bible says!! The Bible says man cannot lay with man – that homosexuality is an abomination. Rob definitely needs to repent and ask Gods forgiveness. Can’t believe what I’m hearing. God does not agree with what Rob Bell is saying at all. Rob should go back to the Bible and read it. I’m shocked!! The standard of society has changed – Gods word hasn’t and Gods standard hasn’t at all. Society says its ok to sin and it isn’t.

  • John

    if you believe the bible you know it’s a sin God did not create Adam Eve and Steve
    if you don’t accept the scriptures that is no reason to proceed. Decieved.

  • mkdb

    One might think that if your notions are shown to be false–or, at a
    minimum, unsupported by Scripture, truth, logic, etc … and if you
    can’t answer a simple question–then you would at least consider the
    fact that your assertions might be wrong. This is not merely “reasoning”
    and “reasonable”–it is loving–which liberals claim to own.

    But, in liberalism, truth–and seeking to be in accord with the truth
    so that you do not harm anyone or grieve God–does not seem to matter,
    what matters most is how much you care, or what you or someone else
    feels. Therefore, you will ultimately end up where RB–and liberalism/the emergent church–is today.

  • RAMJR

    God created sex, but not at the value of mans lusts and values…but of His. God said, “Be fruitful and multiply”, the value of which cannot be acted out in homosexuality.
    Now, the problem is, if we stop there, we are only giving half the truth God said will ‘set us free’. Gods values and standings, are compromised by man/woman telling/dictating many times, that God has to accept what we say…rather than we understand manipulation is not a part of God. Nor is compromise or coexist.
    Sex, in Gods standards and standing of humanity, is ONLY a man and woman are married, in covenant with God, and what marriage is defined by God. Homosexuality, premarital sex, bestiality, polygamy, masturbation, adultery, rape…all of the sexual values are a standard of man, and not God. Even divorce, is a standard of man, and not God.
    The problem is we give wiggle room to our values, where God addresses if we are really after what He says, the clarity of that knowledge takes action, work and seeking on all of our parts.
    God made ALL living things for His purpose, not mans/womans…though He did leave the choice for us as individuals to follow or deny.
    We seem to think this value is something new to this world, but if we look to many churches, those that are supposed to be of the value and standing of God, the apostasy and ‘compromise’ within the church is even displayed for us to see. The fact that the ‘communion’ of many churches, became drunken orgies that led to many sexual immoralities…and the members of the churches tried to say Paul was wrong…and they were right. The letters that Paul wrote to Timothy, is this violation with the churches Timothy was trying to keep the corruption out of led to Paul even calling their values demonic in value, and in Revelations, John shows us that Jesus even addressed that value, within the churches, ‘vomit’.
    The biggest problem is. unless you have a strong Biblical led pastor, more than likely you are ignorant to what God warned, Jesus, God made flesh, warned and those that led the churches dealt with daily…same as many churches that are just as apostate in trying to force mans immoralities as normal…and by taking the Bible out of content and context become that which God warns, in Revelations, think they are His…but are really fake and frauds.
    I have many that I know who are homosexuals, and I love them, want them to understand they are living in sin and against God…but I also know I have fallen in sexual sin. The difference being, I know it is a sin, not of God, not what God created sex for, and not a pleasure God will be a part of.
    God created a man and woman as one. Not to compare, not to contrast, as sexual immoralities with more than one partner make our thoughts go. God created marriage to be about two hearts coming together first. Sex was just a bonus, a covenant gift for a husband that shows his wife he waited for her only…a wife to share she waited for her husband only, and more importantly obeying the value of marriage to God, as He created it. Not as man/woman devalues it, within churches alone.
    Time and time again, God makes it clear, the value of this world will not understand, want to understand and will devalue Gods standings, to have his or her way. He also makes it clear we will be mocked in that standing, hated in that standing and even be hurt by that standing, just as those before us in Christ have.
    The biggest deception, within those calling themselves Christians, is in the deception of sex. Satan took the purity of family, sinless, and created a world, that he was given the deed, by our sinful standing…and one day that Jesus will rightfully take back, and by grace, a few from this world be allowed to be with Him…but most, even many clergy and those they taught apostasy to follow, straight in to the gates of hell, which God created also, by the way. God Bless.

  • Preacher

    I would be very scared to be in Rob Bell’s shoes, standing in front of A Holy, Just, Righteous and Unchanging God on judgement Day. Any man or woman who says “because something is culturally acceptable” that it changes the framework of whether or not it is sin in the eyes of Jesus Christ is in extreme danger of possibly being in a reprobate mind. And Leading a host of lost souls to hell. But if the watchman sees the enemy coming and doesn’t sound the alarm to
    warn the people, he is responsible for their captivity. They will die
    in their sins, but I will hold the watchman responsible for their
    deaths…Ezekiel 33:6 NIV/ But if the watchman sees the sword come, and doesn’t blow the trumpet,
    and the people aren’t warned, and the sword comes, and take any person
    from among them; he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I
    require at the watchman’s hand World English Bible. Apparently new “preachers of the gospel” think its ok to use curse/slang in their dialogue to prove their cultural acceptance. So sickening to hear such as this.. I hope and pray the Lord Jesus Christ has mercy on his soul before its everlasting to late

    • CurioustoTruth

      How does teaching remove our personal responsibility? How is this Rob Bell’s fault and how is he leading others to hell? You obviously discern your own beliefs after hearing his discussion, are you now, somehow closer to hell?

      • Preacher

        I would like to start off by saying no where in any thing tat I posted removed personal responsibility. What I did post and it was either misunderstood or totally ignored was scripture in relation to the thought I posted as to the responsibility of the teacher in his teaching/preaching what have you. “But if the watchman(Teacher/Preacher/Leader) sees the enemy coming and doesn’t sound the alarm to warn the people, he(Teacher/Preacher/Leader) is responsible for their captivity. They will die in their sins(personal responsibility), but I will hold the watchman responsible for their deaths.(Teacher/Leader/Preacher blood on his hands) ..Ezekiel 33:6 NIV Parenthesis MINE rest pure quote of scripture. Second off as a Teacher/Preacher/Leader we are held to a higher code of judgement, as God’s spokesmen if you will to carry His message to a lost world. Scripture again”Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. James 3:1 ESV”

        Proverbs 28:10 Whoever causes the upright to go astray in an evil way, he will fall into his own trap; but the blameless will inherit good.)
        Isaiah 3:12
        As for My people, a babe is their master, and women rule over them. O My people, they that lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
        Isaiah 9:16 For those who lead this people lead them astray; and those who are led by them are destroyed.

        Matthew 18:6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be
        better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
        Mark 9:42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.Luke 17:2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

        Oh we as individuals are 100% responsible for our choices but scripture is very clear about the responsibility of the “leader/preacher/teacher” and we as leaders need to stop trying to either rewrite/ reevaluate/retranslate to fit our culture ND JUST GO BACK TO GOING BY THE BOOK! PERIOD THE END JESUS HIMSELF SAID in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Deut. 4:2 “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the
        commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. ”Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.” 1 Cor. 4:6 “that you may
        learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.”
        Psalm 119:160 (NIV)All your words are true;all your righteous laws are eternal.

        Revelation 22:18-19(NIV) 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. From Old Testament to New Testament God warns of the “Judgement of He who changes His Word! So yes I say the leader/teacher/preacher or what ever he chooses to call himself will stand before The Lord Jesus Christ on judgement Day with blood on his hands unless he finds himself in a place of repentance and the Lord has mercy on his eternal soul.

  • CAM

    I believe that Rob Bell should seek God I mean really Pray and ask God if homosexuality is a sin. I also believe he should also Fast and Pray and God will show Mr. Bell that yes indeed homosexuality is definitely is a sin in God’s time and in our time and will always be a sin. He needs to quit talking about what he has no idea what he is talking about and get down to business and have a one on one talk with God. If he is earnest, sincere and loving God will talk to him in his still soft voice and also will show him in scriptures, homosexuality is SIN.

  • Mar Komus

    Rob Bell = deer in the headlights stare. Favorite word = “lots” without any real citation or examples. Dodges the issue at hand quite a bit.

  • Phillip Cohen

    He seems evasive.

  • vianderson

    This maybe how the world views, accept and how the world has become but God did give us all a free will to choose and the only two choices are 1.choose life by following The truth of God and His way or 2. choose death live how you think and want to contrary to The Word of God. In Roman 1 God gives the description of a person not wanting to accept the truth and want to believe that God is going to change or go against Who He is -HE NOT! He goes on to say what will happen and what He will do if people keep choosing to live a worldly life- He will turn them over to a reprobate mind. It is your chose but He do not want none to perish but again it is our choice. He is LOVE and Loves us but He is also Just and must punish sin

  • george

    my heart is sad this whole sin issue. Where sin abounds grace does much more abound.
    Yes Rob is way out there, Jesus told the woman, go and sin no more.
    Lets get on board with Jude 21-23

  • http://www.drhodges.org/ Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

    More evidence of the Church Leader’s need for attention and desire for ratings. No need to debate something that God has already settled in His Word in both the Old and New Testaments, particularly with these two people.

    Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

  • Christopher Clarke

    To simplify this argument, do a word search of the amount of scriptures that talk about ‘immorality’ then fine tune it to ‘sexual immorality’ you will see that God is against all forms of sexual immorality. We tend to focus on issue of homosexuality (yes scripture does list it specifically and tends to treat it more harshly) but God is a God of purity, ANY SEXUAL relationship outside of the biblical covenant of Male to Female marriage is immoral in the eyes of God, whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.

    Sadly Rob Bell has been compromised in his view of this matter (and a number of others by the sound of things) I haven’t had a chance to look up the scholar he quoted which he based his definition of sin from, but It was wrong and the scriptures give us such a clearer picture of what sin is ‘All fall short of God’s Glorious Standard Rom 3:23′. We may look at a harmonious homosexual relationship and not see anyone being hurt etc. But God looks at the heart (1 Sam 16:7) the most selfless well meaning person will still go to hell, because it is clear that it is a repentant heart that has called out to Jesus for Salvation is the ONLY way to heaven.

  • Corrine

    I listen to this video, was very disappointed. I didn’t hear anyone explain the gospel of Jesus Christ our savior. If God tolerated sin, Jesus wouldn’t have had to die, Just think Satan got kicked out of heaven because of sin. The God I serve, God that created heaven and earth is Holy, Only the blood of Jesus can make us whole again. He has given us a choice, you see we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But Romans 10:9 says ” If we confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved. So the choice is ours if you continue to sin, you will burn in Hell fire or if you accept Jesus and repent of your sins you will be filled with the Holy Spirit that will lead and guide you in all truth. which gives us eternal life in heaven. You see its not about you, and how you feel, its all about God and what he has done for you, by giving you a choice. He also says

  • Evan

    glad that Bell is showing more of his true colors…the wolves can only keep their fur hidden beneath the fleece for so long.

  • Maggie

    Well apparently some of your Hebrew isn’t up to date. Really the Leviticus verse again? Does not have a thing to do with homosexuality for you rocket scientist that think it is in the Bible you might want to check on when the Bible was written and when the word homosexual came into use. Jesus gave TWO commands love God and love each other. Where’s the love folks?

    • James Connor

      Love is the correct view.Love your God And love your neighbor. Or as many of us are finding a family member will show us the Way of Love..Jesus said “do these and you have fulfilled the law.”: i would think this trumps all other as these were Commandments. why are there still arguments??

      • zunelander

        HI, James. I think these are still arguments/discussions for some because it’s difficult for some to let go of what they’ve been raised to believe in regards to what the bible means and is saying (or not saying). Even further, many people do not seem to be aware that loving their neighbor is equal to loving God. Jesus says this in Matthew chapter 25. Despite this, some Christians still insist on pointing to Mosaic Law when the Law of Christ has replaced Mosaic Law. Only the commands between man and his neighbor is the Law. Commands between man and God are not the Law. That means the long list of things that people do for religious reasons towards God that have nothing to do with how they treat their neighbor are irrelevant (ie. circumcision, getting baptized, not eating certain foods, etc.). All of these things have no effect on how a person treats their neighbor (ie. God, figuratively), so like circumcision, they are seen as works. Fulfill the Law of Christ by loving others as we have been loved. That is what justifies people before God (Romans 2:13). Some people find it hard to believe that all we have to do is love one another as ourselves via benevolent deeds. For some reason, it’s far better to believe that all we have to do is say we accept Jesus as our Savior and that is what justifies us. However, that is not what Paul taught because that is not what Jesus taught. That’s my answer:)

    • amos8

      Everyone is for love … but it is just a matter of agreeing upon what love is, and is not.

      Is it loving in general, and is it loving God and others to allow a loved one to remain in behavior that grieves God (and/or harms the loved one and/or others … i.e. sin)? (Jude 21-23; James 5:19-20; Gal 6:1; Matt 18:15-17; Ti 1:9-13; 3:10-11)

    • nadobabo

      What does it mean by ‘love’ anyway? What does it mean to love God?

      • zunelander

        To love God is to love your neighbor (as thyself).

      • amos8

        “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.”

        “And by this we know that we have come to know him, **if we keep his commandments**. Whoever says “I know him” but **does not keep his commandments** is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever **keeps his word**, in him truly the love of God is perfected.”

    • Davenr

      It’s unequivocally clear in the Bible, Maggie. God detests homosexuality and will judge such behaviour severely, unless repented of and forsaken, as spelt out in Leviticus, Romans and Revelation. If there are degrees of sin, then homosexuality ranks pretty highly.

      • zunelander

        Homosexuality is, indeed, condemned in the bible. However, that is only because each instance presented in the bible is a violation of the Law of Christ, which is to love thy neighbor as thyself. On the other hand, there is no biblical example of a gay couple, but there doesn’t need to be. After all, does the bible present the story of everyone who ever lived from Genesis to Revelation? Surely, the bible would be bigger if it did. Needful to say, it does not seem just or fair to take bible texts that have to do with breaking the Law of Christ and applying them to an issue that does not break the Law of Christ.

        • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

          You write that in each instance of homosexuality presented in the Bible, it breaks the law of Christ. But you seem to say that a gay couple does not break the law of Christ. What grounds do you have to conclude that? What reason do we have to conclude that the Leviticus passages do not refer to gay couples? Leviticus 18:22 does not say “a single man shall not lie with a single man”. Neither does it say “a man shall not lie with his male partner”. Instead it seems to say that any man should not lie with another man.

          • zunelander

            Hi, Tom.

            I know that no matter what I say, we will still be on opposite sides of this issue. It’s an assumption, but I think it holds true, most of the time.

            Jesus was asked a very simple question about how a person inherits life. The end result was that a person who ‘loves thy neighbor as thyself’ will be the person who inherits life. This should be the answer that is given to someone who asks that very same question today, but it’s not the answer that today’s Christianity teaches. Nonetheless, based on this particular answer, homosexuality, in general, if it does not violate this law, is not a sin. Only those things that break the law are sin. A person either follows the law or breaks the law.

            In Romans 2:13, it is this law that Paul is referring to when he says, “..the doers of the law shall be justified..” It is the very same law that Paul used when determining whether or not something was a sin or not. Something like eating food that had been offered to idols, which many believed was a sin, was one of those things Paul held up to the ‘love thy neighbor as thyself law’ and concluded that it was not a sin to eat such foods, regardless if it had been associated with idolatry.

            Regarding Leviticus: I believe Romans 1 is referring to the very same context the Leviticus 18:22 is referring to, which is idolatry involving same sex rituals. The term, abomination, in this verse is referring to the idolatry itself. I base that on the definition of abomination that I found when I looked into it’s meaning. This tells me that the text is not a generalized reference to any random gay couple. To someone from our day and time, it would seem to be such a reference, but that’s only because the only reference people today have is today’s homosexual issue, which is totally different from the homosexual issue being referenced in the bible. Leviticus is a letter that was written to people who lived before us. People who knew what was going on in their culture and society. We’re the ones who have to figure out what was going on in day and time we did not live in. That’s why we have people today who study biblical history, societies and cultures.

            In addition to the meaning of abomination in Leviticus 18:22, which is a reference to an idolatrous act, the term can also refer to an idol itself, like in Deuteronomy 7:26 and in 1 Kings 11:7, which specifically names the abomination as Molech. To make a long story short, this is why I don’t believe Leviticus 18:22 is talking about today’s modern issue. Instead, it is referencing the issue of its day and time: “…sodomites in the land; and they did according to all the abominations of the nations..” (1 Kings 14:24) Sodomites are not homosexuals, despite that popular belief. A sodomite is defined as a male devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry, which is what I have been talking about in this posted reply to you. I hope this helps you understand what my grounds are on this issue and Leviticus.

            Thanks for taking the time.

          • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

            Thanks for such a detailed response leecappella. Yes, I think youre right that we are likely to remain on opposite sides of the issue.

            In regards to requirements to gain eternal life, in Luke 10, Jesus teaches that it’s to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind and Love your neighbor as yourself.” Whereas in Mark 10, Jesus gave a whole list of commandments to be followed in order to gain eternal life. I think that summarising it all down to simply loving your neighbour as yourself, does express a core principle, but it leaves out the details. And the details are important! Almost no Christian believes that Romans 2:13 is simply a reference to loving your neighbour. In the era in which the book of Romans was written, in a religious context, ‘law’ largely meant the religious law that the Jews held to, of which there were many! (As indicated eg in Hebrews 9).

            Youre right that the word translated to the English word ‘abomination’ tends to refer to idolatry. But examples such as found in Proverbs 6 show us that it does not always refer to idolatry. And although idolatry is referenced in Leviticus 18, the theme of the chapter seems to be of unsuitable sexual partners. We know that God opposed idolatry all together, so it would be pointless for him to list partners with whom it is sinful to engage in sexual idolatry. Furthermore, it would be odd that all sorts of unusual sexual partners are listed, particularly close relatives, but not a spouse. Does this imply that it’s okay to engage in sexual idolatry with a spouse? It seems more sensible to me that the list details types of partners which are ruled out for sex irrespective of whether idolatry is involved.

            Best regards.

          • zunelander

            Thanks for your response, Tom. Now, I am going to reply, in vain (smile):

            Loving the Lord your God with all of your heart with all your soul and with all of your strength AND loving thy neighbor as thyself are not separate commands, but are one and the same and equal. This is what Jesus taught. If you love your neighbor, you are loving God. This is evident in Matthew chapter 25. This was not popular with most Jews because they believed loving God was the first and foremost commandment and they believed keeping all of their rules and regulations (as part of their religious devotion to God) justified them before God. The lawyer knew what Jesus believed and taught. That is why he sought to tempt him or trip him up, as they would say in our modern language:) But, Jesus stuck to his guns and taught that both commands are one and the same, which is why it’s the law that sums up all other laws and commands.

            Romans 2:13 is a reference to this law. It doesn’t come right out and tell you that it is, but those to whom it was originally written to didn’t need it to do that because they knew what Paul taught and stood for. And, they understood the original language, its terms, and meanings. We’re the ones who have to get to where they were. One has to wonder why this verse speaks of the law as justification for those who do what it says, while Romans 3:20, a few verses later, speaks of no one being justified by the works of the law. It’s a contradiction to the modern bible reader. However, two different laws are being referred to by Paul. Paul is teaching his audience that how you treat your neighbor justifies while the religious things people do to show their religious devotion (like being circumcised) do not justify. The original hearers of Paul’s words knew what he meant when he was saying that one law justifies, while the other law does not justify. Because our modern bibles don’t break it down for us and specif,y by name, each law, this is something many do not see.

            Most Jews were not devoted to the ethical treatment of others and Paul knew this. They disregarded how they treated others and were more into what they called works or Jobs of the law. All of their rules and regulations superseded the law’s ethics. This is why I believe Matthew 7:15-28 says what it says in regards to those who, on the outside, seem godly, but they are not. They are those who cast out demons and prophesy in Jesus’ name, but because they are so focused on the ‘works’ (ie. things like casting out demons, prophesying, circumcision, etc.), they fail to love thy neighbor as thyself. They think that they are pleasing God via their devotion to God via their ‘works’. Paul, in Romans and elsewhere, was trying to get the Jews to see that by focusing on the wrong aspect of the law of Moses, they were missing the mark because it’s the ethics of the law that justify, per Romans 2:13. Paul even describes Gentiles who, without the law, do by nature what the law requires. And, such Gentiles are justifed before God because they are doers of the law (Romans 2:13). Do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, etc. are such commands based on how you treat your neighbor. Commands such as these are the law. Jesus discarded the works/Jobs of the law of Moses and said that only the ethics are the law. This is what the law of Christ is. Only the ethics based on love thy neighbor as thyself. In what way does being gay or being in a gay relationship break this law?

            Yes, I know that ‘abomination’ does not only refer to an idol or idolatry. However, in the verses I referred to earlier, it means idolatry and/or an idol.

            My best to you, as well.

  • Robert Blannin

    The Bible is cut and dry. It was written by 40 people that had no contact with other when the Bible was put to gather. The Old testament supports the net and the New supports the Old. No person with all the computers and a 500 years could put a book as this together God that is out side Time. He gave us this book to know Him and what makes Him do what He does and a heads up to coming problems. Those in His protection (Believers) will be protected.. My question are you a Hart beet from salvation or to late.
    I Love God because He sent His Sun to die for a peace of trash as I, and thank Him for the new Life that was given by the sheading of His blood for Us.

  • Raymond Lynch

    This division among believers regarding the issue of homosexuality is just what Satan wants. Although there are people among us who preach that homosexuality is NOT sin, the scriptures are firm on the opposite. One of the problems, as I see it, is that Satan has once again set believers at odds with each other. Remember, Jesus warned that with whatever judgment we judge, with the standard we used we too will be judged. The two sides of this debate have clashed head on but the water will remain muddied until we grasp the idea that scripture is not obligated to change with the changes of society. It doesn’t take a Bible scholar to recognize the fact that God identifies anything that goes against what he has established was sin. Sin is sin whether is was something identified as morally wrong in 3000 BC or in 2013 AD. To allow Satan to continue to muddy the waters under the guise of divergent theology sets up a condition that not only resembles that reported in Genesis 6 but contains all the earmarks of reasons why our societies are spiraling at break-neck speed toward destruction.

    • amos8

      “Thus the people were divided because of Jesus.” (John 7:43)

  • James Connor

    Rob Bell is an incredible theologian. His Love Wins book is grounded in scripture and follows the Gospel. He continues to give good ideas in this so called debate. one man was into condemnation while the other was preaching love and acceptance. Who was Jesus and how did he have spend his time. He shared his time with the least of us. Jesus shared his time with those whom society hated and rejected.. Jesus said, “love your neighbor as yourself.” He didn’t say love only those who are just like you..

    • amos8

      Is loving your neighbor telling him or her that the sin in their life is grieving God, harming his or her relationship with God, harming himself or herself, and/or harming others? (Jude 21-23; Jas 5:19-20; etc) ["Better is open rebuke than hidden love"]

      No one talked more about “condemnation” than Jesus (i.e. God).

      No one talked more about hell than Jesus.

      No one is more concerned about sin, condemnation, and hell than Jesus.

      Love does not accept sin, love is deeply concerned about and grieved over and hates sin (because they love … because the love God and their neighbors).

      • zunelander

        In order to truly love your neighbor as yourself, one first has to understand what that means. This is the Law of Christ. That which violates the love your neighbor as thyself Law is considered a sin. First, one should ask one’s self, are two adults of the same gender who love each other and are in a relationship violating the Law of Christ. If yes, then they are sinning in God’s eyes. If no, then it is lawful and up to the involved parties to decide for themselves. If you still disagree with them, even though they aren’t breaking the King’s Law, you are called treat them in the way you would want to be treated if you were them (ie. love thy neighbor as thyself). That’s my view:)

        • amos8

          Thanks for the reply.

          Yet there are still more things to “define” or clarify. You still refer to or assume that two people of the “same gender who love each other …” The assumption that “love” is defined, but it is not (in this situation, and many others involving 2 people).

          Also, there is a difference between 2 people that “love each other” in a general and in an overall way compared to how “loving” those 2 people are to each other in specific ways. For example, are 2 people loving each other if they have “pre-marital” sex? (assuming we agree, at least for the sake of argument that this is a sin … and that they are, therefore, sinning against each other … and harming each other and their relationship with God).

          Furthermore, we have not addressed what the “loving” thing to do is, exactly, when a loved one is in sin. If we call sin “sin” are we loving, or that unloving (as many here assert)?

          To say that love, or “the King’s Law,” is “to treat others in the way you would want to be treated if you were them” is, I would say, not accurate. If we followed this then the Standard for love becomes subjective, it becomes based on human desires (which are called “deceitful” and evil and …). The Standard for love is always God and His unchanging, objective Word.

          • zunelander

            I would have to disagree with you, Amos8. Firstly, pre-marital sex is not a salvation issue. Meaning, a person does not go to Hell for having pre-marital sex. Why? Because the Law of Christ is not based on whether or not someone has pre-marital sex or not. And, pre-marital sex is not something that breaks the Law of Christ. The King’s Law is based on how you treat people, because how you treat people is a reflection of how you treat God. Loving God and loving others is not a separate issue. They are one and the same thing, as stated in Matthew chapter 25. When you love your neighbor, you are loving

            Pre-marital sex has been taught to us in our modern culture as being a sin to God, but, originally, I believe it was not so. As stated earlier, pre-martial sex is not a violation of what is the Law. That which breaks the Law is a sin. That which does not break the Law of Christ is lawful. Knowing this before I did, Paul said that all things are lawful (that do not violate the King’s Law). However, as Paul also taught, all things that are lawful are not beneficial. Each person must make up their own mind as to which lawful things are good for them and which are not. This is much like the ancient issue of eating food that had been offered to idols. Some thought it to be idolatry and, thus, a sin. Others did not. In light of the love thy neighbor as thyself Law, Paul knew eating food offered to idols did not violate the King’s Law and he deemed it okay.

            I know we will likely not agree, but it’s always nice conversing with you, Amos8. Always in love, but not always in agreement.

        • Michael Waldron

          You have misinterpreted ‘love’ as you see love-not as God sees love or is the very embodiment of love itself. You have made God in your own image and thus pervert and distort the truth. In essence you are guilty of doing the same things Paul accuses of in Romans chapter 1. Whenever man tries to justify sin or define ‘love’ according to finite human understanding he makes a grave error. God has said his intelligence and ways are as high as the heavens are above the earth meaning your understanding isn’t even close to His. Stop trying to pervert what God designed and using this constant argument of ‘the law of Christ’ as a cover up for sin and that which is unnatural in God’s sight. Your posts are littered throughout this entire blog on almost everyone’s comments. Stop trying to justify your sin or someone else’s. Please.

          • zunelander

            Michael, we all make God into our own image, on some level. Even you. You and I are not going to agree on this issue, but I love you, nonetheless. If you are not fond of my posts, you are free to ignore them. I am merely sharing my view just like you are. If you can share, I can also share. Even if we disagree. I believe what I believe, strongly. Do you? I bet you do. So, neither of us is going to change. What do we do about that? We love one another and continue to share what we believe, in respectful disagreement. You imply that I am not seeing what it is that you see, but I have already been on your side of this issue. Continuous careful study and prayer has changed my mind and I have good reason for changing how I see it. Because you don’t see it or agree with it doesn’t make me anymore incorrect than you, considering that both of us are fallible human beings who miss the mark daily. Thanks for your reply.

          • Guest

            Hi, Michael. We all make God into our own image, on some level. Even you. This is a blog where people should be free to reply and post, if they wish to. Comments shouldn’t be limited to only those who share your view. Not everyone shares your view. If you can post here, I (and anyone else) should be able to post here as well. Love thy neighbor as thyself.

  • Jac

    I like Rob Bell, I agree with some things he says and disagree with others, but what drives me nuts about him is his constant avoidance to actually answering questions he is asked (not just in this debate, but in many interviews I’ve watched)

  • Jac

    I am also frustrated that the debate becomes more of an attack on Bell than a discussion of the “issue”

  • seth

    Christ said that He who loves me must keep my commandments, true love is sounded by in action and indeed first to the Lord and second to our brothers. And true loves reflects not in condoning the sin as it is as well in not hating the sinner. Paul at one time when the Corinthian Christians had accepted a man who had taken in his stepmother told this of them 1st corinthians 5:9-13 9.I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;10I did not at all mean
    with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and
    swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the
    world.11But
    actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if
    he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a
    drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVE. Brethren we cannot say we love our fellow brothers if we see them rot in sin and leave them as that, moreover true love will never be seen in the love of men at the expense of God’s truth.

  • Ingus

    Word of God in Genesis 2 says, Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife:and they shall be one flesh. Man – ish woman – isha Wife is female. Apostle Pauls letter to Ephesians Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Jesus Mat.19. the same. Rob Bell stated that faithfulness is most important. Who said this? Who has rights to correct me and say that I may not divorce? Rob Bell’s statment has no moral power. Jesus, God in flesh stated that divorce is bad, and in the same time he stated that from begining they are ish and isha man and women, husband and wife. God told us what is from beginig good and what is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong from begining. As for word love – love comanded by Jesus and poured our in our hearts is agape. There is no sex feelings or atraction involved in agape. Check greek english dictionary! :)

  • Francisco M Busta

    I would like to clarified that when Jesus say that we must love each other it does not mean that we can have sex we each other, sex is limited in the bible to two persons that are married, and marriage according to the bible is the union of a man and a woman, anything else is prohibited by God and by consequence it is a sin.

  • NOCOMPROMISE

    look in the face of this rob bell guy and you can see who,s promoting him…culture will never trump KINGDOM.

  • David jock

    They only defending the words, beliefs and ideology of whom they belief on, Rob Bell has a master the Devil he’s no reason not to do the work of his master. The word of God is God, eternally settle in heaven, no philosophy or ideology of man is able to change it or affect it in any way.

  • Martin Wandera

    I would like those who support same sex relationships to first show their stand from the scriptures before I can give in my contribution.

  • Nick

    Rob Bell has given into the world. Andrew Wilson is crushing him on this.

  • Nick

    I agree with Andrew that we are to love and care for gays as persons, but not their behaviors. Sin is sin and you cannot call it cultural relevant because it is accepted in the world today. The gay lifestyle has been a problem in the past and it will be a problem in the future.

  • Bill Womack

    It’s time for a reality check. The church tells gay people to come to the cross. Now stop being gay! This approach is overly simplistic and has not been successful for most. In fact in practical application what happens at most churches is a “you don’t have access to the Kingdom until you “change” philosophy.” No one has ever prequalified himself for salvation; yet gays are singled out for this unique approach to God that fully denies the cross of Christ. We then demand their behavior modification as “proof” of salvation and proceed to assign them to Hell if they aren’t successful in becoming “normal.” This is utter foolishness and any man with a Pastor’s heart realizes that there has to be a better way. Rob Bell and many others are offering gay people an alternative to the church’s ” change now or you die” attitude. I’m not saying they’re right but it us definitely wrong to banish millions of people who don’t “measure up to the high standard of moral excellence” that all these posters must have obviously achieved!

    • jontrott

      The verse about removing the log from our own eye before trying to remove the speck from another’s eye comes to mind. Yes, Scripture is clear on homosexual behavior (note I did not say same-sex attraction is a sin in and of itself, because it is not necessarily so). But before we speak on homosexuality, let us examine ourselves. Are we speaking out on the monumental sexual failures among Christians who don’t deal with same-sex attractions? The fact our divorce rate is identical to the divorce rate of those around us? The fact we do, unbiblically in my strong opinion, insist that women are subservient to men? The fact we rarely address spousal abuse or instruct our children plainly about what rape consists of? The fact we support our nation’s militarism (80% of white Evangelicals voting for George Bush and even more for Mitt Romney?!). The fact we choose a sin — homosexuality — that is far from most of our experiences as the sin we publicly attack while ignoring the many other sins which Scripture treats with equal or greater severity. Don’t get me wrong. I do believe we need to, in all meekness and gentleness, bear witness to the Scriptural calling to marriage as a one woman, one man, and One God relationship. But yes, invite gays to church. Lead them to Jesus Christ. Be as patient with them as we are with our selves and our own “nice little pet” sins. A gay person can be a Christian…. just as a man having sex with a woman, perhaps even living with her outside of marriage, can be a Christian. Discipleship calls us *all* upward in obedience, so who are we to self-righteously declaim against gays? Bear witness in humility… love our gay neighbors… realize that even for the most flamboyant gay person their sexuality is not the only or even primary issue. Their need of God’s Love is the primary issue, and they will likely encounter — or fail to encounter — that Love through our example and our words.

      • Bill Womack

        Wow Jon, finally some words of wisdom being written here. God bless your brother for your input !

      • batangpaslit

        you wrote your post inspired by the Holy Spirit

  • Brian

    Did he say the word “BS” at 16:47?

    • amos8

      Yes, but its actually a good thing (in the “missional” mindset) because when you cuss (or are more like the world) you are seen to be “authentic” and NOT “legalistic” … you are being “missional” and so it is all justified.

    • Simon Peter

      His own choice of words betrays him……or…………… affirms him……?

  • Creer

    You can not change what God said because you want. Nobody can do it, Sodom and Gomorrah is the perfect example. That’s why homosexuality is named Sodomy. God tell everybody change or die, not only the homosexual, transgender etc. This is the purpose of the entire message from God. Change or die, The only way to go into heaven is through Jesus Christ, accept him as our Lord and savior, repent, and sin NO MORE. Other wise there’s no meaning for the entire God-spell.

  • Christian

    Same sex marriage is contrary to nature, contrary to the scriptures and will eventually bring death both spiritual & physical. However, we should continue to pray for those in this bondage. We should also be praying for the so called leaders in the Christian western nations who are propagating this evil for political reasons. This scouge will pass away and the Word of God shall
    prevail.

    • batangpaslit

      homosexual relationship is an active rebellion against GOD

  • arimae

    Also, I’m a single mom of two toddlers who are very high maintenance and everyday I have to struggle with my heart just wanting someone else here to help me, a husband. I’ve had a few serious opportunities to enter into a serious relationship with men who are good men, but who aren’t Christian and I have to turn away, regardless of how desperate I feel at times. This is because I know that entering a relationship with them is a high risk of me no longer following Jesus. It’s not easy accepting being alone in and of itself, led alone doing it with two toddlers, but I’m willing to make that sacrifice of living life “alone” because I love Jesus that much. It’s then that I realize that I’m not alone, I have God and He has me, just like He wanted because he is a “jealous” God. I’ve also had to come to accept the chance that I may be single for the rest of my life, if that’s what God has planned for me. I get through it by remembering that God has plan for me and always has my best interest in my mind, so if I wasn’t where I was for a good reason, I wouldn’t be where I am at all. Why shouldn’t we all have to make the same sacrifices?

    • amos8

      Thank you for your word, and your love and faithfulness–especially in the midst of difficulty.

    • batangpaslit

      yes, obedience is better than sacrifice

    • http://www.drhodges.org/ Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

      Dear Sister

      I pray that God will hear your prayers for a Godly mate, a good Christian man that will love you and your children. That you will raise your children to respect you as their mother not because you demand it, but rather because they raise and everyday to call you blessing because of who you are in Christ.

      That you too will in your time of waiting on God, will prepare yourself to be a loving, respectful and honorable women of God for the mate God is sending your way, to bless you because you have asked.

      It’s never easy, but marriage is for better or worst but forever, so wait on the Lord!

      Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

    • Anne

      Good on you Arimae, I too am alone but I am a lot older than you. Married for 36 years and then 10 years ago lost my husband to lung cancer. My friends have often tried to encourage me to date, but I know that unless God brings someone into my life that loves God with all his might, soul and mind then he is not the one for me. I pray that if it is His will you will meet that special God given someone. Yes it is a sacrifice not to settle for second best, but anything less is not worth the heartache that a wrong relationship brings. God bless you.

      • amos8

        Bless you Anne! I am so sorry for your loss, yet blessed by your faithfulness.

  • Matthew

    I think the obvious concern here is that Rob Bell has replaced his authority. His authority is no longer the Word of God, is it? Once you alter your authority for life, faith and teaching, there’s no telling where your views might end up.

    • amos8

      You are right, however, there will always be Rob Bells and those who replace/corrupt the authority. But how will the church handle this, that is the question.

      “A horrible and shocking thing
      has happened in the land:
      31 The prophets prophesy lies,
      the priests rule by their own authority,
      and my people love it this way.
      But what will you do in the end?” [Jeremiah 5:30-31]

      So far the church has been horrible.

    • Aaron

      Good stuff Matthew.

    • Elyse

      I thought Jesus was the Word. How can the Bible that was formulated by human council outweigh the living Word? Is Jesus or is Jesus not the Word and the primary authority in our CHRISTian lives? Perhaps when we weigh our actions toward one another against grace personified (also known as Jesus), these debates about same-gender relationships will be less dogmatic and more reflective of who God shows Godself to be.

  • Nick2013

    The sadness of this debate is how far we have come from Christ. To believe that the Bible is antiquated and not relevant is what Paul warned us would happen… Galatians 1, I Timothy 4…etc… To Love God and Love people can only be understood in loving God’s commands and loving people as Christ did. Christ loved people but did not compromise Himself and He was willing to be unpopular and lose His followers. Unfortunately with great sadness we cannot “break bread and drink wine” with someone preaches/teaches this heresy . Romans 1 speaks about those who approve of others… and 1 Corinthians 5:11 warns us to stay clear of these people… As for hanging out with gay people…. sure… why not…. loving the unsaved is what we are supposed to do and that is easy. BUT… We have to treat those who call themselves Christians/elders/leaders who are leading people astray differently because of the task they have aspired to. We treat them differently because we hope for godly repentance.

  • Shando

    This man Rob Bell has been deceived by the devil , and has allowed a spirit of deception in his life, church and ministry!
    In the book of Timothy…..that in the latter days many will be seduce by demons and doctrine of devils!
    This man must be rebuked sharply and with love……the bible says rebuke the unfruitful works of Darkness.
    Jesus loves sinners…..but all sinners must repent!

  • Ati

    We have departed from the Bible Christianity. Those gay so called who claimed to be Christian should better read Matthew 7:23 Jesus will tell them I never knew you depart from me you that have worked iniquity. Jesus died for sinners so that when sinners repent, they can be forgiven not so that sinners can continue in sin. Animals in the bush do note mate with the same sex how come humans are not ashamed to talk of same sex. How can you a man become a woman for another man like yourself. If God intended for you to be a woman, he could have created you a woman. If you say that you are a Christian and you believe the Bible, how come you do not believe the story in Genesis 18:20,19:1-13
    We are exporting the evil of gay lifestyle to other nations of the world. We are undermining the word of God. We forget that God is a consuming fire. God is not only a God of love but also a God who is just and who hate sin that is why it cost Him His only Son Jesus. Repentance is what God expect from those whom Satan have taken captive.

    • JustMe

      It’s funny how people pick and choose certain scriptures to state a point. If you would have read the scriptures before that one, you would have notice that Jesus isn’t speaking about sexuality, but about false prophets or anti-Christ.

      • Godsaidit

        It is apparent that you do not understand what is being said, neither do you understand how a Christian is supposed to respond. When Christ was tempted by satan, He used the Scripture that best fit the temptation. We are to use the Word of God. The problem is, the Truth does really hurt! HA!

    • JustMe

      He without sin throw the first stone. It kills me to no end when mere humans sit in judgement of others. Like God can’t handle judgement on his own. Make sure your own backyard(life) is free of sin before you criticize others and their lives.

      • amos8

        “It kills me to no end when mere humans sit in judgement of others.”

        Do you mean just like “JustMe” did below?

        I, for one, believe we can and should make judgments–and that this is precisely what Jesus is telling us to do in the verses I believe you are referring to: Matthew 7:15-20 as well as 7:6 (+ Jn 7:24) and many, many other verses! The problem comes in how we judge, how accurately we judge, and according to what standard that we judge, etc.

    • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

      Animals do in fact sometimes have homosexual sex. But God calls people to a higher standard.

  • Aaron

    Rob Bell seemed to make it all about his experience, rather than the Scriptures. He kept saying, “that’s how the world is”. So we adjust our theology to match how the world is? How about Romans 12:2, “Do not conform to the pattern of this world,” or in the NLT, “Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world”. Or 1 John 2:15, “Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.” Or John 15:19, “If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.”

    We should not sacrifice clear Biblical perspective in order to match the culture of the world. We should, however, absolutely love and accept people who struggle with homosexuality. They need to feel God’s love and acceptance just like everyone else on the planet. But that doesn’t mean we have to approve of homosexuality or gay marriage as Biblically acceptable behavior. In fact, if we don’t recognize and acknowledge it as ungodly, then we will never help people begin the journey to freedom. We should ALL be on a journey of becoming more Christ-like. But if we’re afraid to Biblically define what that looks like, how can we grow towards it?

  • Dazza101

    Bad form Churchleaders. Look at your promo picture. Andrew Wilson looking happy, (smug?) and “right” – Rob Bell looking away (no eye contact – must be lying) and even “unsure.” I’m sure you had plenty of photos to use for this promo, but like secular politics, you chose to make a statement through your image so we subconsciously draw a conclusion even before we watch the video. Regardless of what I think of the content of the debate, I’m really disappointed you advertise in this way, buying into tools used by advertisers of our day for one reason – to attract readers to a controversy and to make money. Will you have a debate about the sorts of issues of marketing, materialism and greed (which have significantly influenced how we do business in the Christian merchandise world) which are arguably larger issues in the 21st Western world than sexuality? Very disappointing, and I trust you less now.

    • Bright

      It’s unfortunate that you understand issues this way, but what God has said can never be changed by man. Sorry, God owns the world and He sets the standard for living. If anyone thinks otherwise he or she may have to repent of face God’s anger. REPENT NOW!!!

    • mamazee

      I had to pause four or five times while reading this (mom in a busy household, and invariably it paused on Rob Bell making an uncomfortable face, bcz he obviously was uncomfortable the whole time…

  • Ben

    breaking news like there is a lot going on, hows come we can’t live in the love of Jesus? why would a punch of do gooders go around denouncing

    everything about everything, no matter what subject comes up some one has to protect the Honor Of Jesus Christ as if He can’t do it for himself, matter of fact He wants to do everything so no one and i mean no one can before Jesus and say look what I have done for you.

    what kind of God do we have if He needs his body to defend him as some other religions do. I know what is to be in Love with Jesus, I fell that love and I can’t compete with it so I enjoy the love, I am all so very bothered of Brother Paul being equated with Jesus our Lord. whom the son sets free is free indeed. my question is from what have you been freed from? it was the Love of the Father that sent Jesus to us and it was the Love of Jesus to do the work on the cross and He did it all by His self. All of you sin consciences who do you think you are? do you remember what the words of Jesus were when He was dying for all us, FORGIVEN WHICH MEANS ME FOR THEY DON’T WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

    the same words were spoken by the first martyr Steven as he was being stoned to death he also spoke the same words for give them, and they were just like you and me and any other who so ever. question how many of are prefect? how many of you do not sin in any way. so just like you like to be for giving do like wise. Ben as son of God by the stripes of Jesus who payed the total price.

    • batangpaslit

      right on, Bro!

  • batangpaslit

    I do not think being a homosexual is sin.
    what the Scripture prohibits are homosexual activities, which is no different when straight gals and guys engages in adultery or fornication.
    illicit sexual acts are sexual sin regardless it is committed by homosexuals or heterosexual men and women.

    • http://www.drhodges.org/ Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

      Does not matter what you think, believe or feel about the LBGT gay lifestyle choices, only what God says in His Word and this has long been settled in both the Old and Testaments as being a sin.

      Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

      • zunelander

        The problem with that, Reverend, is that although the bible is viewed as infallible (by some), it’s readers are fallible. That means there are people who are capable of error reading a book of books that they believe has no errors in it. As a result, those who read this book of books assume they are infallible in their interpretations of what they read because the bible is viewed as infallible also. It’s as if the fallible readers don’t even consider their own fallibility because they’re reading a book they deem infallible. Without saying it, the Christian reader implies, “Because the bible is infallible, what I believe it says is also infallible.” This, despite the fact that the Christian reader is capable of error.

        • http://www.drhodges.org/ Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

          Brother Lee

          Again it does not matter if you and/or others believe the Word of God is infallible or their views on the LBGT gay lifestyle choices.

          God has for many moons already well settled this issue (on both accounts the sin and His Word), to the point that any further response would be a waste of your and my time.

          So disagree if we must, but God Word’s in the final authority regardless on any personal opinion, interpretation, feelings, thoughts, emotional responses, your feeling of error by others, etc.

          End of story, it already been well settled!

          Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

          • zunelander

            You’re correct, Reverend. It doesn’t matter what your or I believe. Only God will have the final say. God could even invite ‘His’ gay and lesbian children to the banquet table because ‘He’ knew more than we did. I happen to believe that God will do just that because everyone ends up reconciled back to God in the end. We should simply love one another, whether in agreements or disagreements, and let God be God.

          • Vrguth

            The real key to everything you are saying is found in the work of the Holy Spirit, if one has truly given their life to Christ they have the Holy Spirit residing within them. The work of the Holy Spirit will let that person know what sin is for all of us have fallen short of Gods grace and none us deserve to be in his kingdom but deserve hell. One will know that not only homosexual is a sin but their are many other sins that can keep us from having a strong walk with God, and God wants us to be totally obedient to Him and to put Him first in our life.

          • zunelander

            I will agree with you up to a point, Vrguth. You have been raised to believe that only those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior are the recipients of the Holy Spirit. Of course, I am assuming that’s what you believe and, if true, I don’t blame you for that. I was a part of that indoctrination as well. Truth be told, Jesus has already made himself everyone’s Lord and Savior. There’s no need to ask him to be something that he already is.

            ‘Believing in Jesus’ did not originally mean what today’s Christians happen to believe it means. At least, that’s my conclusion based on my studies. To the original Christians, ‘believing in Jesus’ meant just that: Believing what Jesus said and doing it. Paul taught this in Romans 2:13, indicating that those who do what the Law of Christ says are justified before God. This has nothing to do with accepting Jesus, as believed in our modern day culture. Instead, it’s about loving others in action and, therefore, fulfilling the Law of Christ, which is not a Law only for Christians, but for all of humanity. The bible says, anyone who loves is of God and God is in him. ‘Anyone’ is inclusive, not exclusive. This has nothing to do with becoming a Christian, but everything to do with merely being a human being who loves his fellow human beings (as thyself). Doing this fulfills the Law spoken of in Romans 2:13 and James 2:8. Doing this justifies a person before God, not being a Christian. The label is far less important than the heart and how one treats others.

            Love is a fruit of the Spirit and love is the Law of Christ. If you’re opposed to homosexuality because of the view of what you believe the bible is saying on the issue, then I would put forth to you (and to anyone else), as a suggestion, to consider that loving thy neighbor as thyself is the Law of Christ. Therefore, each and every reference in the bible about homosexuality is a reference to contexts that violate that Law and were, therefore, condemned. Today, the issue is not what the issue was back in the days of Sodom and idol worship that involved same sex rituals. If the Law of Christ is the Law, and it is, then all things should be held up to the light of that Law to ascertain whether or not it breaks that Law or does not break that Law. The Law of love will let you know. Yes, the Holy Spirit will let you know because the Holy Spirit knows that love is a fruit of Itself. If something does not break the Law, then that something is lawful. As Paul said, all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. It is up to you to decide if something is expedient (for you) or not. What is not expedient for you may be expedient for someone else, however.

            When it comes to the Law of Christ, if something does violate that Law, there should be no doubt that it is a sin. Jesus upholds love for others and treating others the way we would want to be treated. Any kind of mistreatment towards our neighbor is a violation of the King’s Law (James 2:8). There is nothing about two persons of the same gender who are in love that says they are breaking the Law of loving thy neighbor as thyself. Sure, you can go to the bible and point out this verse and that verse, but, as I mentioned earlier, all of those contexts refer to situation that do break the Law of loving thy neighbor as thyself. That’s why they were condemned. Seems pretty simple to me, but it wasn’t always so simple. Having years of modern Christianity playing in your head can make it difficult to see what originally was intended. Especially, considering that our bibles are not quite like the original and our framework comes from a modern framework instead of from the framework of antiquity.

            Always in love, but not always in agreement,
            Jimmie

          • dastrick

            I don’t know what bible you are reading.”John 3:3 (KJV)
            3 Jesus
            answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto
            thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

          • zunelander

            Well, there are many bibles, aren’t there? That’s part of the problem, indeed. We don’t have the orginal bible. Sure wish we did. Just one. Not many. At any rate, I’d say being ‘born-again’ means one thing to you and another thing to me. Especially, in light of the Law of Christ. Define ‘born-again’.

          • Amy

            How does everyone end up reconciled to God in the end? I wish that were the case, but it isn’t. There is a hell and we need to keep that in mind. That’s why we need to evangelize to as many people as possible so they will be reconciled to God. And not end up in eternal punishment.

          • Amy

            I hate when people twist the truth of “the Word” and make it “their word” so it goes along with their lifestyle. We can believe what we want to but that doesn’t make it right. I could believe pigs could fly but that doesn’t mean if I go out and buy a pig that it’s really going to fly. The truth is the truth. It’s not relative. It is what it is, like God said I am that I am. It’s not how I interpret the truth or how I interpret the bible. It’s not my way is good for me and your way is good for you. There is only one truth and that is Jesus.

          • Amy

            And yes we do need to love each other and win each other to Christ because He is our only hope. We just have to be wary of false teaching and false doctrine

          • zunelander

            Hi, Amy. Have you ever read 1 Corinthians 15:22? IT says, “…In Adam, all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive…” What does this mean to you?

            Also consider four verses down, where it reads in verse 26, “…The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death…” What does this mean to you?

          • Amy

            What about John 3:16. That whosoever believeth in him shall be saved. You have to believe in Him. You can’t just take one or two scriptures to base your whole theology on. You have to take the whole bible to base your theology on. Everybody can pick and choose certain scriptures that seem to make their way of life right, but you have to take the bible as a whole. Anyway I’m done after this, I typically don’t debate with people over scriptures because I know it usually turns into an argument and each side doesn’t usually change the way they believe. I wish I could persuade you to change the way you believe just to make sure you’re right with God when he comes, but God would have to deal with your heart about that. I wish homosexuals or drunkards or liars or any other sinners would go to heaven too because I wouldn’t wish hell or the lake of fire on my worst enemy, but unless they change their ways meaning get saved and allow God to change them then they don’t have any hope. Christ is our only hope, but we have to believe in him and allow him to change our lives. I hope you find that one day. I hope Christ changes your heart and the Holy Spirit fills your life. Until that day comes I hope Christ deals with your heart daily.

          • zunelander

            Hi, again, Amy. I have enjoyed our conversation. It was not going to turn into an argument, though that does happen to some people. Debates are not bad, as long as those involved behave themselves and respect one another, regardless of their differences. It’s very difficult to change someone’s mind in a discussion like this. I am here only to share my view, like yourself and others are doing, no matter if my view differs from the majority. Faith is a very personal thing and one shouldn’t expect another to change their faith view simply because someone thinks they should. Nonetheless, I will answer your latest question to me. If you read it or not, I may not know:

            John 3:16 was a verse you knew nothing about until someone told you, I’m guessing. From a baby on up, you knew nothing until someone taught you. Once you had it ingrained into you what this verse means, it stayed with you. Over the course of time, you hear the same message over and over, again. “You have to become a Christian. Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Ask him into your heart and you will be saved!” You hear this so much, or something similar to it, so it must be what John 3:16 means. However, this is not the original meaning of John 3:16, as I have found. And, there are other verses in the bible that line up with my view as well.

            The whosoevers that believe in Jesus are the whosoevers that do what Jesus said to do. Remember the story of the good Samaritan? This is the story that Jesus told after he was asked the question, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?”. There are a few ‘goodies’, if you will, in the good Samaritan story. For one, Jesus uses a Samaritan as an example of someone who does what it takes to inherit life. Jews and Samaritans did not get along. When the lawyer asked Jesus, “Who is my neighbor?”, Jesus made it clear that someone you may not like is your neighbor, regardless if you have differences with them. Telling the lawyer that a Samaritan is someone who is his neighbor was huge, considering the Jew/Samaritan relationship.

            Another ‘goodie’ in Jesus’ good Samaritan story is that he shows the lawyer that the ones you think will inherit life aren’t necessarily going to inherit life. Why? Because they failed to do what it takes to inherit life. A priest and a Levite are in the good Samaritan story and neither of them did the example of what it took to inherit life? The good Samaritan story came about as an extension of answering the lawyer’s questions, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” and “Who is my neighbor?” Jesus’ answer was not, “You must become a Christian by asking me into your heart and asking me to be your Lord and Savior.” Instead, his answer was the answer the lawyer gave: love thy neighbor as thyself. I know that you (and others) believe that loving thy neighbor as thyself is not enough to inherit eternal life. Tell that to Jesus! It’s right there in Luke 10:25-36. I know that you don’t want me to use two or more verses to base my theology upon. I have not. I assume that is not what you do with John 3:16, is it?

            Thus far, I have showed you verses where Jesus confirms that what one must do to inherit life is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus replied, “Thou hast answered right. This do and thou shalt live!” Afterwards, Jesus goes into the story of the good Samaritan. Now, I know that you are probably thinking that I am forgetting the first part of Luke 10:27, where it reads, “…Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength…”, but I am not forgetting it. I just have not mentioned it yet.

            A similar story like the one in Luke 10 occurs in Matthew 22. Only, in this story, a lawyer asks Jesus what the greatest commandment in the law is. Jesus gives the same answer as the lawyer did in Luke 10:27, but he also says more than the modern English eye can see. In Matthew, 22:39, Jesus says, “…And the second ‘is like it’, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself…” The phrase ‘is like it’ means, ‘is its equivalent’. I just learned this only a year or so ago. Jesus was saying loving your neighbor is equal to loving God. If that is hard to believe, Matthew 25:32-45 makes it clear when Jesus identifies the righteous and the unrighteous. You can read that for yourself.

            In these verses that I have shared with you, Jesus answered an important question of what one must do to inherit life. The answer is to love thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus even tells a story as an example of what loving thy neighbor as thyself entails. In another place in the bible, Jesus is asked what the greatest commandment in the law is and his answer is the same: to love thy neighbor as thyself. Jesus even makes it known that loving your neighbor is equal to loving God. He makes this point even more clear in Matthew 25 when he tells his listeners that the righteous are those who were altruistic, implying that the unrighteous are those who were not altruistic. Simply put, Romans 2:13, which states that the doers of the Law are justified before God, is referring to those who do what Jesus said to do: love thy neighbor as thyself. When you do this, you are loving God as well and thus, fulfilling the requirements of the Law, which is the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses. Romans 3:20 refers to the Law of Moses and its works, which no one is saved by. Thus, the well known belief that no one is saved by works. ‘Works’ are the things people do for God, thinking they have to, that have nothing to do with how you treat people. Thus, they are works and are irrelevant. Like circumcision is, as described in Romans chapter 2, as an example. Although loving your neighbor as thyself is something that you do, it’s not seen by God as works. It is what Jesus has distinguished as the new Law. The Law of Lliberty. We are to be enslaved to love and love one another (as ourselves). If loving others was conceived by God as a ‘work’, then loving God would be conceives as a ‘work’, but loving others is not seen this way by God. What you do to others, you do to God, Therefore, if you love your neighbor (as thyself), you are loving God. This is what the bible is teaching.

            I know my ramblings likely mean nothing to you, but I think I have presented to you a few verses that support one another. If you believe that a person has to become a Christian and ask Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, although these things are not really what the bible teaches, that is your right to believe what you wish to believe. However, I believe the bible says just what I have shared with you. I believe it says it even more so than the things we’ve been traditionally taught it says. Why are the righteous the righteous? (Matthew chapter 25) Because they did what Jesus said to do: love thy neighbor as thyself. Why did they do that? Because they “believed in Jesus” and what he said must be done to inherit life. This is what believing in Jesus means. Anyone who loves is of God and God is in them, regardless of one’s religious affiliation.

            You have not shared with me what you believe 1 Corinthians 15:22, 26 is saying, but that is okay. You said you were done for concern of an argument. You don’t know me. I wouldn’t argue. Just share and disagree in love and leave it at that:) Always in love. Sometimes in agreement, but not always in agreement. Thank you for your time.

        • batangpaslit

          I fully concur with your perspective, Bro. You are humble to admit our human shortcomings.
          For even Paul admits that he sees things “darkly”.
          Gay and Lesbian people are turned off to meet Christ because of the arrogance and pride of those who are supposed to be Ambassadors for Christ.
          Their condemning attitude far exceeds the Pharaisic attitude during the time of Jesus.

          • zunelander

            I will not get into what I believe “meeting Christ” means, but I will thank you for your reply. I agree with you as well.

          • batangpaslit

            meeting Christ = Christ encountered me
            when I was searching for Truth, I had doubts whether Christ is indeed Divine.
            through reading the Gospels, an account in the Book of Mark I was convicted that, yes, Christ is GOD

          • zunelander

            “Meeting Christ” can mean different things to different people. I do understand what your meaning is. Thanks.

      • batangpaslit

        Rev Ronald E. Hodges, if indeed you are an “anointed” Minister of GOD I will not debate with you. GOD will deal with your arrogance and condemning spirit.
        Assuming that you are not gay; however, you are as sinful too together with the gay and lesbian people whether the latter commits sexual sin or not.
        You may not be committing homosexual acts, but you would never pass too the criterion of GOD’s standards.
        Your arrogance and pride condemns you, Sir.
        Straight men and women are, as well, sinful being. Are you not a sinful man because you are not Gay or Lesbian?
        Since you are righteous, you don’t need Christ, eh?
        What GOD condemns are homosexual activities. Some people have hormonal problems. They struggle from being born that way. But their lifestyle is “clean”. They don’t engage in sexual sin condemned by GOD.
        Not all Homosexuals—-Gay or Lesbians—-do the lifestyle of what you’re referring.
        A number of heterosexual men and women, are adulterous and fornicators. Their acts are as sinful as homosexuals who commit sexual sins. Is their a difference between you and the gay person if you have desired with lust another woman?
        Being gay per se is not sin. Haven’t you read the Epistle of Paul?
        Anyone who engages in sexual sin, whether they are gay or not, lesbian or not—-it is sin.
        Personally, what I desire to see particularly to people who have prefixes or Reverend or Doctor before their name is mercy, compassion, and grace.
        Tragically, however, Sir, I cannot sense from your repartee that you are endued with Fruit of the Holy Spirit—the mark of Christ’s life.

        • Eseme Unen

          Please, shut up! Shame to those who are blinded by their own lust and wish to contaminate others. Choose to be what you want to be but don’tcampaign to justify your evil cravings by reinventing the Scripture. What do you call love? You see a blind person heading for the precipice and you refuse to warn him – That’s love! Forget about your passion for a while. The Scripture cannot be compromised to satisfy unrepentant satanic apologists. Let God be true and men be liers. God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows that he shall reap. A SIN REMAINS A SIN HOWEVER ANYONE FEELS.

          • batangpaslit

            YOU are pathetic Eseme Unen.
            You cannot distinguish sin from sinner, eh?
            To whom did Christ offer His life?
            You are pathetic because you do not know how to read. You are blinded by your prejudice, arrogance, and pride.
            Where did I indicate in my post that I consent the commission of sexual sin?
            With your vehemence to people who are struggling in this area, I construe, you are a doer, eh?
            Remember there was this crusader who badmouths the adulterers, the fornicators, and the lesbians and gay people?
            And what is the true story?
            The crusader was eventually found out that he maintains a harem of paid prostitutes—male and female.
            Chuckles…
            I extremely doubt that you are a follower of Jesus Christ.
            Yes, you may have a religion Eseme Unen; but, you do not have the Spirit of Christ.
            I cannot sense and feel from your condemning riposte.

          • Eseme Unen

            Batangpaslit, I don’t need to bandy words. Iam a sinner saved by grace and commissioned to educate others who are yet to see the light Christ shows. Iam expected to tell them the truth in scripture and not be defensive or apologetic. Its the truth they are exposed to that will help them make informed decision.

            How often do we advocate the rights of armed robbers or militants? we dont speak about them in glowing term. But we are ready eulogize imoral and perversed addicts. God will judge every sinner who fails to repent. I don’t know if you believe there is heaven for the saints and hell for sinners.

            If you are born again, you will appreciate the urgency in encouraging and evangelizing the unsaved to embrace salvation in Christ Jesus. You will equally agree with God in scripture that there is no more time to romanticize sin and cajole sinners into unsafe comfort. Whether we agree on this or not, its not debatable, JESUS CHRIST IS COMING SOON to receive His elects and judge the world in righteousness.

            The Bible is not a piece of legislation of any democracy. Therefore whoever believes the scripture should be prepared to advocate on its terms. The devil is a sinner. Bible says he sinned from the beginning. No one who has been rescued from the shackles of sin and Satan will retain them in his protocol list.

            I know who I used to be before my gracious redemption. Its more than a change of lifestyle. It’s a supernatural transformation. Come test and see that God is good.

          • batangpaslit

            Unen, do you know how to read?
            Could you point out to me which line I am defending sin.
            I rebutted your posting because of your condemning attitude to sinners.
            Christ did not condemn the sinners.
            The LORD died for them.
            Yes, Christ want a transformed life.
            But in His message, Christ never condemned the sinners who needed transformed life.
            In your case, however, you condemned the people who needs help.
            Rather than helping the people in need of help, you hindered them to be helped.
            Yes, GOD is good. If indeed you have experienced GOD, then, your attitude must reflect the goodness of GOD.

      • Godsaidit

        Rev. Hodges, the Word of God will stand FOREVER!!! Satan blinds the minds of those who are perishing. I do not care what is written on here, HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN, and that is according to GOD!

        Leviticus 20:13

        New Living Translation (NLT)

        13 “If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense. Also, King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: “Thou shalt not lie with
        mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    • TheBattman

      Hmmm… how do you interpret “dishonorable passions” (vile affections, shameful lusts”?

      • batangpaslit

        anyone who engages in such things—be it in thoughts or deeds, whether it is committed by a straight guy or gal, or gay or lesbian—are committing sexual sins.
        lying with a man like a woman is, of course, wrong.
        just as a man lying with a woman who is not his legal wife is wrong.
        my point, was, and is, is:
        as followers of The Way, we do not condemn the sinning person. we condemn sin; but, we have to be merciful to those who are living in sin.

    • Evg. Erica Hall

      @batangpaslit
      Please meditate on Romans 1:26-28. Sin is missing the mark; a standard that God has set. God placed the ability to know the truth and difference between right and wrong, life and death within each of us;

      • batangpaslit

        No argument with what you posted.
        I am simply saying: Christ died for sinners like you and I and the rest of humankind.
        Let us show our gratitude to GOD by being compassionate too to others who are struggling in sin.
        Otherwise, our condemning attitude would drive away the people from drawing nigh to GOD and seek His face.
        I never said that it is alright to commit sexual sin.
        Read my other posts.
        Be Christlike—-have compassion to sinners. For you and I and the rest who feel “righteous” and are proud and arrogates of their “righteousness” are as sinful as those who had committed sexual sin.
        Pride and arrogance is the sin of Lucifer, the Adversary.

      • batangpaslit

        being homosexual, and engaging in lifestyle of sin are two different things.

        even a heterosexual is committing sin

        some are born with hormonal problems, hence, some men acts softie, or some women acts in boyish ways

        but as long as they do not engage in sexual sins or other forms of sins, their being softie (for men), and being boyish (for women) is per se not sin.

        assuming, Erica, you are a straight woman, you are sinful too.

        that is why we all need Christ—-straight or homosexual—since no one can meet GOD’s standard.

        the point am driving at, is: we condemn sin, but we do not condemn the sinners. Christ died for the sinners.
        anyone who have the spirit of Christ, ought to demonstrate that spirit: grace and compassion towards the sinners.

  • mamazee

    Wow. Andrew keeps trying to use logic, and Rob Bell keep dragging out his feelings. I think an analogy he could have used would be:what of African tribes that practiced polygamy and then came to Christ? Was it God’s will for the chief to divest himself of all but the first wife, leaving the others destitute? Then again, the Bible is very clear that in those cases, the man is obliged to be evenhanded with all of his wives – and makes no mention of or provision for same sex relationships….

  • Justme

    I have sat here and read all the comments regarding sins and repentance. We all are sinners everyday. We all have been washed free of our sins through the blood of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. I’m puzzled by the various comments. We don’t have the right to stand in judgement of others. We are living in the last days. Our main focus should be our alertness and prayers in the return of Jesus. Yet we are focus on the rights and wrongs of others. What so-called Christians should be doing is looking in the mirror at themselves and their lives. Are you ready for the Lord’s return?

    • Davenr

      Yes, I am, but those who are actively practising homosexuality will not be, and that should be important to us. They need to know, and it is only loving for us to warn them.

    • batangpaslit

      I fully concur!

  • Lemuel Kulah

    Every born-again child of God whose heart has been joined in the Kingdom of God’s dear son JESUS CHRIST is called to the life of sanctification and should or must flee every act of immorality. Our Lord and God Jesus Christ is holy in all His ways and righteous in all His works. Therefore everyone that is a new creation in Christ Jesus must walk before Him with his or her whole heart in holiness and perfection.
    Homosexuality is rebellion and disobedient to the Word of God, and is considered sin before the Lord. God created man and female to have and enjoy sex in His ordained institution called marriage, and any sextual act carried out outside of His divine will is sin.
    The Bible warned us that he who sin is of the devil. Therefore homosexuality has no place in the life of those who are head of God’s salvation in Christ our LORD.
    As born-again child of God, we endeaver to have abiding and infilling power of the Holy Spirit, to enable us remain good tree that bear good fruits through the power of God. Those who engages in homosexuality are carnally minded and to be carnally minded means death, but to be Spiritually minded means life.
    Finally let us cultivate an attitude of yeilding our lives to the obedient of God’s word and permit the Holy Spirit to solidify His standard within us to enable our behaviour be governed by Him.
    Thanks your brother Pst. Lemuel Kulah

  • Liza49

    Wilson’s smug arrogance took my breath away. Bell’s humility was exemplary.

    As I watched Wilson pepper-spray Bell with questions at the very beginning, trying to get him to say what he wanted him to say, I thought immediately of the exchanges between some of the Pharisees and Jesus. Bell wouldn’t fall for it. Neither did he fall for the trick of entering into a game of “scriptural gymnastics”.

    Clearly, Bell has a pastor’s heart and is more concerned about the lives of all of God’s children than to concern himself with the fallibility of the human mind and the inability of human intellect to completely discern God’s word. Bell knew all of Wilson’s arguments because he’d once been there himself – made all the same or similar arguments – until his experience taught him something else.

    Have you not read the story of the exchange between Jesus and the
    Syrophoenician Woman in Mark 7:25-30/Matthew 15:21-28? Jesus knows what the religious and cultural teaching is about women, but after talking with the woman, he has a change of heart and grants her request.

    Or, what of the experience of Peter regarding meeting with the Gentiles who ate “unclean food” but still accepted them as very members incorporate in the Body of Christ after a dream? (Acts 10).

    Even Paul has a conversion concerning the Gentiles and their full acceptance into the membership of the ancient church because righteousness comes from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ
    to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and
    fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.(Romans 3:22-24).

    Or, what about the teaching of Jesus concerning The Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) where Jesus lifts up as an example the one who was seen as an outcast (the Samaritan man) who did the will of God better than the priest and the Levite?

    In that story, Jesus is clear: the most important law is “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’, and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.” ((Lk 10:27)

    Indeed, the “new commandment” Jesus gives to us is: “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” (Jn 13:34)

    If Jesus loves us “just as we are, without one plea”, does Jesus not love the homosexual just as s/he is – without making any demands of conformity to the religious or cultural norms of the day?

    Do any of us have the kind of faith and courage to live into that New Commandment? If we don’t, do we dare we call ourselves Christians?

    • Islanderwaab

      I agree with you that we have to “LOVE” one another, but we should be more discerning in an age where sin is consider good, especially towards people who teach the Bible, like Rob. How about this verse in James 3:1? “Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.”

      • Liza49

        And, indeed, Rob bell is being judged more strictly because he is not now saying what people who have been listening to him have come to expect him to say. Jesus experienced the same (“You have heard it said….but I say to you….”) – and, not only was he judged more strictly, he was crucified for it. Both Paul and Peter did much the same in the early days of the ancient church. Here’s the thing: Whether or not you or I believe one thing or another, God still reins. God is still working God’s purpose out in and through us and, in and through our controversies. The church has changed its stance on many issues: women and slavery being chief among them. Well, most of the church. Sexism and racism are still very much alive in parts of the church. The church will either change or die. My money is on the church changing to catch up with God.

      • zunelander

        We are not only to love one another. We are to love others as if we were them. That part seems to be forgotten by many.

        In order to understand James 3:1, you have to understand James 2:8 and the King’s Law. Paul understood it because he knew Jesus declared that the entirety of the Law is summed up in loving thy neighbor (as thyself). All of humanity, Christians and those who are not, are called by the Creator to love our neighbor (as ourselves). We are to do this without being a respecter of persons. If we are selective in regards to whom we love (as ourselves), we are sinning. Why? Because, that means, there are those who are not being loved as thyself by you. Since the Law is to love one another as ourselves, we cannot be a respecter of persons concerning whom we love and treat in equity, fairness, and human rights.

        Teachers are, indeed, held under strictness. Any teacher that instructs something other than doing the commandment of the King’s Law, I would say, they should not be teachers. Interestingly, there are a lot of pastors, preacher, bible teachers, and the such, who are not teaching the King’s Law, but another gospel, instead. I grew up, like many, not being taught what I have come to believe is the original message of Jesus and the bible.

        Rob is being accused of teaching the wrong teachings of the bible, but that is only in the eyes of those who disagree with him. Surprise! Just because you disagree with someone’s view of the bible and what the bible is saying, it does not automatically mean God is on your side because it’s your side. If you disagree with someone, just make sure you disagree with them in love and treat them in the very same way you would want to be treated if you were them (having the view they have).

      • Minister Victoria Jackson

        YEEEEEEHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If they know better then do better.. Oh yeah God is not playing be not deceived God is not mocked

    • Kim

      They’re not in debate regarding God’s love for people the debate is, is homosexuality a sin or not and should they marry? I didn’t find Andrew’s questioning to be smug or arrogant just direct and his replies to be confident because of his study & knowledge of the Word. I don’t question Rob Bell’s love for people but a pastor will not lead the sheep astray. I do question his belief’s and interpretation of scripture. He hasn’t clearly answered the question as asked. In my opinion Rob Bell is watering down scripture to fit society’s definition of Homosexuality. We’re to love people & not the sin. YES! God loves the homosexual not the lifestyle, and if that’s your choice then there is a consequence. He loves me but there’s a consequence if I choose to commit adultery, kill, steal, slander, choose not to forgive…..you get my point.

  • Buy d truth

    What’s the need for the debate. The servant of the Lord does not strive. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive NOTabout words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Homosexuality is a sin against God, nature, culture, and science. Animals cannot practice such. The Church shall rebuke them in love and through counseling and deliverance help those who are held by the monster same sex.

  • Islanderwaab

    Too sad that this topic has become just a sensitive taboo in our western society. It’s so sensitive that touching it may bring the wrath from the activists. The “practice” of homosexuality is unnatural and is a sin! Is Homosexuality worse than other sins? Probably not in the eyes of God……And this is the good news: Jesus died for ALL sin!

    • Minister Victoria Jackson

      Amen..

  • Shanncap

    Rob Bell is trying to rewrite Scripture. God doesn’t change and His Word doesn’t change. Homosexuality is directly in rebellion against God.

    • CurioustoTruth

      He is not “rewriting” anything. He’s defining, there is a big difference. Rewriting is to say that he is adding or changing. Defining is to say he is working with the content that is currently there. Intent is prior to content and content without a proper context is a pretext. The Scriptures can never mean what they never meant…at least in their original sense. The problem arises when making that distinction. Are we absolutely certain no one word would be better than another in our interpretation of the text. It is here that many scholars wrestle with the content. It’s striving to find truth wherever it may lead and may often entertain a difficult challenge such as this one.

      I don’t think it’s wrong or unfair to suggest sexual immorality is defined in Gods laws as sin. I do however see great discredit on behalf of scholarship to suggest those struggling with homosexuality are hell bound anymore than any other classified sinner. It is for this reason the conversation fails so often. We place the verdict of judgement on the individual before the sentence has been carried out by the Judge. The law in this case is to justify one another and not to justify the Ultimate expression of Justice and Mercy at the cross of Christ. We cannot fairly make this kind of pronouncement or accurately express a finality of judgement. Only God knows.

      I’m so glad I am counted among the sinners. Because Jesus came for us. If you aren’t a sinner, you don’t need Him. But I have Him and He came for me and my sinner friends. I’m grateful for mercy and grace. I wonder if you have need of a Savior, perhaps a sin or unrighteous deed that is keeping heaven barred from you? Surely, He (God) gets to make that distinction?

  • dastrick

    This is the longest bunch of Non-since I have ever read. Gods word does not change. God is the same yesterday, tomorrow and for ever. And by the way Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father but by him. So how many ways are there to God? People are doing everything they can do to make evil good and good evil, we are in the last days for sure.

    • zunelander

      You say that because you don’t agree with it, dastrick. That’s what people say when someone else does not share their view. Nothing new. Did you not look up the verses I referenced regarding what I said? I am to live by the faith of the King (James 2:8), not by the faith of anyone else. Take time to pick up “Pauline Paradoxes” by Michael Wood and read the latest on the Dead Sea Scrolls and how the original bible was. If not, it does not affect me in any way.

      One of the biggest misunderstandings in the bible, I feel, is the quote regarding “..I am the way, the truth, and the life..” This is not about people having to become a Christian via asking Jesus into their hearts, which is what traditional Christianity teaches. This is not in the bible, yet it is what is taught. Instead, originally, being a follower of Christ meant doing the equity requirements of the Law, which were all based on loving thy neighbor as thyself. By being a doer of this Law (Romans 2:13), anyone who loves is of God and God is in them. <—- If the intention of God was that only Christians went to heaven, then 'only Christians who love are of God and God is in them' would be the bible verse, but it's not. The verse is inclusive of anyone being of God and in God if they love one another. Anyone. Even a gay person who is in a gay relationship.

      Disagree if you'd like. It's your right. I live by my faith as you do yours. Always in love, but not always in agreement. Although, I'm sure we agree on some things:)

      • Michael Waldron

        What cult are you part of? Also, have you ever received the Holy Spirit by salvation? I ask because if you had, the Holy Spirit would be convicting you of homosexuality in your spirit alone. All these crazy long dissertations on the Bible’s supposed support of homosexuality would completely fall away. As a born again, Bible believing Christian, the Holy Spirit convicts the believer of what is wrong and right-simple as that. Homosexuality is sinful and unnatural-bottom line truth.

        • zunelander

          HI, again, Michael.

          Anyone can consider something a cult to them. Even one’s Christian faith could be seen as a cult to an outsider of the Christian faith. So, I understand your response because you don’t share my view.

          It seems that you have made up your mind about me based on how I feel about the issue of homosexuality. If I don’t see things the way you see things, then that means, I’m not seeing things the way God sees things. Fortunately, you’re not God nor am I. Knowing this, I will stick with what I believe, for I have very good reasons for believing as I do.

          Thanks for replying.

        • Guest

          Hi, Michael.

          Anything can be considered a cult to someone who is on the outside of the “cult” or belief. There are those who believe Christianity is a cult because of certain things Christians believe. So, I understand your response. It seems that you have already made up your mind about me: Because I don’t see things as you see them, then that means, to you, that I don’t see things as God sees them. Fortunately, you are not God, so that means, I have a choice to believe what my studies, prayers, and faith have concluded. Or, believe what you have concluded. If you were God, I would go with you. Since you’re just as capable of being incorrect as I am, I will stick with what I believe according to my faith. We should treat one another in love and leave the rest up to God: the One who makes the final decisions.

    • batangpaslit

      non-since
      or
      nonsense
      /

  • mary

    It’s not about who sin is the worst because we all have fall short of sin. The truth is about homosexualty and any un natural act is a sin whether gay or straight. God said heaven and earth should passed away but his word remain the same.

    • zunelander

      Define unnatural, please.

      • Minister Victoria Jackson

        THE BOOK OF I TIMOTHY WILL GIVE A BIBLE PROPHESY ABOUT THE END OF TIME.. UNNATURAL OR AS U MIGHT READ UNNATURAL AFFECTION.. IS SOMETHING UNNATURAL. MEN WITH MEN.. OR WOMEN WITH WOMEN.. OR SOME PEOPLE CHOOSE TO LAY DOWN WITH ANIMALS FOR SEXUAL PLEASEURE.. THATS UNNATURAL. GOD MADE ADAM THEN HE SAID IT IS NOT GOOD THAT MAD SHOULD BE ALONE SO I WILL CREATE U A HELP MEET EVE.. SHE IS TO HELP MEET YOUR NEEDS.. MAN AND WO-MAN

        • zunelander

          Hi, Minister. I see in 2 Timothy 3:3 where “without natural affection” is mentioned. This is not in reference to homosexuality. I know that it’s an easy thing to assume since many people view the love between to same gendered persons to be unnatural, but the meaning of “without natural affection” has nothing to do with homosexuality. Maybe to a modern thinking mind, but not according to the definition of the phrase itself. As a minister, you should know the original meaning of “without natural affection”. However, I do understand that ministers are human and capable of error like the rest of us.

          Always in love. Sometimes in agreement, but not always in agreement.

        • zunelander

          Hi, Minister.

          The term ‘unnatural’ has many meanings, depending on the context in which it is used. If someone is going to use the bible to seek the meaning of ‘unnatural’, one should consider the context in which it is used. Even further, one should also consider how the term was defined during the time it was used.

          The phrase ‘unnatural affection’ is defined as being hard hearted or without family love toward one’s kindred. This is in the book of 2 Timothy. I don’t see the term in 1 Timothy, but I have not really looked. Nonetheless, ‘unnatural affection’ refers to lack of love for one’s family/kindred. We do see that a lot going on today in the news: Family mistreating one another often to the point of death.

          What it all boils down to is what determines how one inherits eternal life. How did Jesus answer that question when it was asked of him in Luke 10:25?

      • Jim

        Natural is when an apple tree produces apples rather than bananas!

        God designed Genitalia to fit together in a very specific way! Kinda like a puzzle!

        I have a Lesbian Cousin, I lover her, she knows I do not believe her lifestyle is pleasing to God, however we agree to disagree and respect each others opinion.

        • zunelander

          Natural is also when a boy grows up and finds himself attracted to girls, innately, by no choice of his own. The only choice is to put his attraction into action. The same would go for a boy who grows up and finds himself attracted to boys.

          The view that it has to do with parts fitting together (or not fitting together) seems of less importance than the overall relationship, whether heterosexual or homosexual. However, I will say, for male homosexuals, the parts do fit.

          It’s good that you respectfully disagree with your cousin. I assume that you have come across others in your lifetime who did not agree with you on various other issues aside from this one. Being respectful, like you are with your cousin, is commendable.

          Always in love. Sometimes in agreement, but not always in agreement.

          • Michael Waldron

            How can you honestly say that ‘the parts fitting together seems of less importance than the overall relationship’? Really?? And then you say ‘for male homosexuals, the parts do fit’. Are you serious? You think the parts fit? A man’s genitalia is not meant for the anus of another male. Nor is there is any type of reproduction that takes place from this. So no my friend, the parts don’t fit. Some of this is really just some plain common sense. But as the Word states, in the last days people will turn aside from truth…gathering around them teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. All your arguments on here sound like you continually trying to excuse away your own homosexuality or someone close to you.

          • Guest

            Hi, Michael.

            When someone says the parts don’t fit when they actually do fit, I think that should be pointed out. To say that a part is not meant for another part, that is a statement that takes on a different meaning than saying, “The parts don’t fit!” However, why are these parts not meant for each other? A man and wife might engage in anal sex, would you consider that ‘not meant to be’ as well? Does having sex have to result in procreation? Is that where you’re coming from? What if a couple does not want children, ever? Should they not have sex since they don’t want procreation to be the end result? What about a couple that can’t have children? Should they not have intercourse since there is no type of reproduction to result from the intercourse?

            I understand that you are opposed to the issue. That’s your right. However, your beliefs should be applicable to you to live by, according to your faith. Everyone else should also have the right to apply what they believe to their own lives, according to their faith. Regardless of one’s faith, we all should be treating one another the way we would want to be treated if we were in the other person’s shoes of faith, so to speak.

          • zunelander

            Hi, Michael.
            When someone says the parts don’t fit when they actually do fit, I think that should be pointed out. To say that a part is not meant for another part, that is a statement that takes on a different meaning than saying, “The parts don’t fit!” However, why are these parts not meant for each other? A man and wife might engage in anal sex, would you consider that ‘not meant to be’ as well? Does having sex have to result in procreation? Is that where you’re coming from? What if a couple does not want children, ever? Should they not have sex since they don’t want procreation to be the end result? What about a couple that can’t have children? Should they not have intercourse since there is no type of reproduction to result from the intercourse?
            I understand that you are opposed to the issue. That’s your right. However, your beliefs should be applicable to you to live by, according to your faith. Everyone else should also have the right to apply what they believe to their own lives, according to their faith. Regardless of one’s faith, we all should be treating one another the way we would want to be treated if we were in the other person’s shoes of faith, so to speak.

    • Minister Victoria Jackson

      Proverbs 6 talks about there are six things that the Lord hates and 7 are an abomination to him.. Define the word abomination.. Then Look up the 7 deadly sins.. the one that caused the fall in the garden of Eden was (LUST) the spirit that causes a person to act upon sexual immorallity is (Lust and perversion) thats a deadly sin.. unnatural means men with men, women with women.. Duteronomy talks about a woman shall not wear anything wich pertaineth to a man neither shall a man put on a womans garment all that do so are an abomination.. & as I was saying (Lust) is an abomination. IT WILL TAKE U STREIGHT TO HELL PEOPLE TRY TO MAKE THE BIBLE FIT THEIR SINS BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO CHANGE.. HEAVEN IS REAL HELL IS REAL!! EARTH IS JUST A HOLDING PLACE.. U WILL CHOOSE TO DAY WHERE U WILL END UP.. CANT BE BOTH.. GOD DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HE IS A HOLY GOD HE KNOWS NO SIN..

  • Bill Womack

    Can we at least stop using ridiculous quasi-christian phrases like,”We love the sinner but hate their sin.” If we really did love gay people, we would not be waging war against them. True love would see a person with a beating heart and a spirit in need of a relationship with a loving father. That’s all that Christ saw while on the cross,”Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” Those words still apply to the lost, broken, lonely, hurting people among us. Do you remember how you felt when you realized that there was someone who loved you so much that He looked beyond your faults and saw your need. “All have sinned And fallen short of the glory of God.” Yet, rather than attack us, Jesus chose to love us unconditionally; shedding His blood in our stead (While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly.) We are not leading gay people to cross, we are merely blocking them from seeing it! After reading all these posts, if this represents Christianity, I am ashamed! Maybe Jesus should have said,”You’ll know them by their hate.”

    • http://www.drhodges.org/ Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

      Yea right…just behind your leading the LBGT gay rights folks there with your being “ashamed”! Get plank out you own eye!

      Rev. Dr. Ronald E. Hodges

      • Bill Womack

        Jesus said, “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me.” If you can restrain your vitriol for just a moment , you might realize that lifting up Christ does not require your beating down those who need Him.

        • Minister Victoria Jackson

          Not all men..Just the ones who choose to lay down their lives and follow him.. Meaning the things you used to do you dont do any more.. The places u used to enjoy u dont any more.. The bible says, Do you not know that u are not your own, but were bought with a price? U belong to God not your self.. Then the bible says, not everybody that cry Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdome of heaven. Lord Havent we prophesied in your name havent we spoke in tongues? He will say DEPART FROM ME U WORKER OF ENIQUITY!! I NEVER KNEW U.. ONLY THE ONES WHO DIE TO THEIR OWN DESIRES.. ONE OF THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS (LUST) THA BIBLE SAYS, IF MY PEOPLE WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME (A SON OF GOD OR CHRISTIAN) WOULD HUMBLE THEM SELVES AND PRAY TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS (Lust and etc.) SEEK MY FACE THEN SHALL THEY HEAR FROM THE KINGDOME OF HEAVEN AND I WILL HEAL THEIR LAND (SINS).. last Romans 6:1 What shall we say then shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid.. continue to read this it explains that we have to die to LUST to be lifted up..

    • amos8

      “If we really did love gay people, we would not be waging war against them.”

      Or … “If we really did love gay people, we would …”

      … love them enough to tell them the truth and warn them (and all others) about any danger (e.g. sin) in their life (Jas 5:19-20).

    • amos8

      “If we really did love gay people, we would not be waging war against them.”

      Or … “if we really did love gay people (and everyone else) and love God we would not be waging war against God’s Word.” “Did God really say …”

    • amos8

      God is love … and Jesus is the truth. Yet you insult and attack Christians for striving to love others by being faithful to the truth? “Instead, speaking the truth in love …” “…love rejoices with the truth” “I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking according to the truth.” ” … they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and …”

      The truth is a pretty big deal in Scripture. Truth is absolutely required to truly love.

      Nevertheless, you judge and condemn “Christians” as hating others … all in the context of “unconditional” love? I hope you see the confusion here.

      • zunelander

        Yes, but whose version of the truth? Exchanging the truth of God for a lie is in context of a people who denied God and, in doing so, they got involved in things that lead them to mistreat one another (Romans 1:28-31), which was breaking the Law of Christ. Which was Paul’s intent to point out in order to contrast how they followed the ‘works’ of the Mosaic Law while ignoring the ethics, which are the requirements of the Law of Christ that are based on how you treat your neighbor (Romans 2:13).

        Regarding unconditional love. Define unconditional without having the word ‘but’ in there, which would make it sound like you might be taking back what you say before the word ‘but’.

        Always in love, but not always in agreement.

        • amos8

          Thanks for writing, but I would love it if your replied to what was written to you earlier …

          >>>

          Yet there are still more things to “define” or clarify. You still
          refer to or assume that two people of the “same gender who love each
          other …” The assumption that “love” is defined, but it is not (in this
          situation, and many others involving 2 people).

          Also, there is a difference between 2 people that “love each other”
          in a general and in an overall way compared to how “loving” those 2
          people are to each other in specific ways. For example, are 2 people
          loving each other if they have “pre-marital” sex? (assuming we agree, at
          least for the sake of argument that this is a sin … and that they
          are, therefore, sinning against each other … and harming each other
          and their relationship with God).

          Furthermore, we have not addressed what the “loving” thing to do is,
          exactly, when a loved one is in sin. If we call sin “sin” are we loving,
          or that unloving (as many here assert)?

          To say that love, or “the King’s Law,” is “to treat others in the way
          you would want to be treated if you were them” is, I would say, not
          accurate. If we followed this then the Standard for love becomes
          subjective, it becomes based on human desires (which are called
          “deceitful” and evil and …). The Standard for love is always God and
          His unchanging, objective Word.

        • amos8

          “Whose version of the truth”???

          That may be a well-intended question, but it is not a good one. Whose version of 2 + 2 = 4? Truth is truth. There is no version of truth.

          You mentioned “unconditional love.” That was not MY term but the other commenter (and the context to which I referred). I do not think unconditional love is biblically accurate.

          Also, I believe you do not have the context/meaning of Romans 1 correct. In addition, I used that referrence for more than one point, one of which is the context of sexual sin/homosexual sin and what it does to the heart/mind of those who practice it.

          I get the sense, and correct me where I am wrong, that your approved standard is much more in the subjective realm (which would require a good heart with minimal to no effects of sin) rather than the objective realm (and, bibically speaking, has a sinful, evil deceitful heart that requires an objective, outside, unchanging, divine Standard).

          • zunelander

            Hi, Amos. I don’t think you can compare 2+2=4 with someone reading the bible and concluding differently than another person’s conclusion. 2+2 is clearly 4. There is no other interpretation from that mathematical equation. From the context of a text, however, differing views are commonplace. Nice having a conversation with you about it though. My apologies on the unconditional love comment. I thought it was originally yours. I do think it is biblical. I believe God loves us no matter what we do. However, being the good Parent that God is, there is punishment for disobeying the Law of Christ, it’s just not an eternal (ie. forever) punishment. What good parent punishes their child for all of eternity?

          • amos8

            I think we can, but either way, there were many other assertions that you have thrown out, and I have tried to address, yet if you do not want to address them, then I might temper how many responses/assertions you put out there.

          • zunelander

            You can misinterpret written text, like the bible or a poem. You cannot misinterpret 2+2. That is what I am saying.

            Can two people who aren’t married to one another love each other? Why wouldn’t they be able to love each other? You likely believe that pre-marital sex is a sin, therefore, because it is (to you), these two people are hurting one another. Pre-martial sex is not a salvation issue. Meaning, a person does not avoid eternal life because of pre-marital sex. Why? Because the Law of Christ is not dependent upon pre-marital sex. The Law of Christ is based on how you treat people. Pre-marital sex only hurts people based on your point of view. The Law of Christ calls sin only those things that violate it the Law of Christ (ie. Those things that are opposite of loving thy neighbor as thyself).

            Pre-marital sex is like circumcision. Circumcision is something people do (for religious reasons) that Paul called irrelevant to salvation because, whether you’re circumcised or not, you can still keep the law of loving your neighbor (as thyself). Pre-marital sex is the same way. You can keep the Law of Christ without breaking it, even if you have pre-marital sex. In this case, it’s something people don’t do (for religious reasons). Pre-marital sex is irrelevant to the Law of Christ because you can still love your neighbor (as thyself) even if you have pre-marital sex. Only those things that break the Law are sin. That is why the same things are repeated over and over, on occasion, in the bible side by side with loving thy neighbor as thyself. Things like, do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, etc. These are things based on how you treat your neighbor. These things are listed because they break the law of loving your neighbor (as thyself). To say that pre-marital sex hurts each person isn’t based on the Law of Christ. That view is based on the traditional teaching that pre-marital sex is a sin. It’s based on something the Law considers lawful (because it does not violate the neighbor based commands). Something lawful (or permitted) is decided by the individual if it should be done in their own life, or not. Once it’s decided it should not be done, that individual ends up telling others they shouldn’t do it either, when that decision should only be applicable to them and their own personal life. Pre-marital sex is what Paul would call lawful. He would also say that not everything that is lawful is necessarily good for you. But, again, I don’t believe that he would call it a sin because he knew what the Law was and that pre-marital sex did not violate the Law of Christ, just like he knew not being circumcised did not violate the Law of Christ.

            The standard for love is God and God sent Jesus who establish a new Law: love thy neighbor as thyself. Only the commands based on loving thy neighbor are the Law. All the rest are unnecessary things people do for God when they don’t have to. Or, things they don’t do (because of God), when they can, if their conscience permits. If someone you know is breaking the Law, it should be brought to their attention, in love. If, however, someone is doing something that does not break the Law of loving thy neighbor (as thyself) and it’s something that you, personally, think to be wrong, that would be one of those situation where you know it’s not for you, but it’s okay for the other person. Romans chapter 14 is a good chapter on things like that. Eating food that had been offered to idols was one such issue back then. Some thought it a sin to eat food that had been offered to idols. Some didn’t think it was a sin. It was an issue of the weak in faith and the strong in faith and how they should be towards one another. Love should always be the basis. That which is the opposite of love, is a sin. Love is the fulfillment of the Law of Christ.

            Always in love. Sometimes in agreement, but not always in agreement.

          • Sam

            “pre-martial sex is not a salvation issue. Meaning, a person does not avoid eternal life because of pre-marital sex. Why? Because the Law of Christ is not dependent upon pre-marital sex. The Law of Christ is based on how you treat people”.

            Ok so…

            Stealing is not a salvation issue. Meaning, a person does not avoid eternal life because of stealing (consider the thief crucified). The Law of Christ is not dependent on stealing. The Law of Christ is dependent on how i treat people.

            ill steal money from the rich cos i love my neighbor (poor) (that’s how i see it for me). this seems the train of ur logic.

            the girl/guy whom your having sex with belongs to his/her future husband.

            finally, the first command of Christ is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. circumventing something to fit what we want is not something of God’s.

            “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear”. 2 Tim 4:3

          • zunelander

            Hi, Sam. How are you? It’s only natural that you would assume that what I am saying is not sound doctrine. After all, it is in disagreement with your doctrine. Your reaction is pretty common when it comes to meeting someone else’s view of what the bible says that contradicts your own view of what the bible says.

            First, love does no ill (ie. malice, harm, etc.) to his neighbor. Love fulfills the Law. Therefore, do not commit adultery, do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, do not covet. If there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this utterance: love thy neighbor as thyself (Romans 13:8-10). As you can see, stealing is something that causes harm to your neighbor. In trying to understand what I mean, your example implies that you do not understand.

            Stealing is a salvation based issue. Everyone is your neighbor, so stealing from a rich neighbor to give to a poor neighbor is not justified, according to the love thy neighbor as thyself Law of Christ. You’re still stealing, even if it is from the rich. How is it right to steal something that does not belong to you? Stealing is a violation of loving your neighbor. In this example, it is the rich neighbor you are mistreating.

            Second, if there is a man or woman out in the world who has had pre-marital sex, yet they eventually get married to someone else, after having had pre-marital sex as a single person, this does no harm to the person they are intending to marry. This would only be an issue for the individual they are intending to marry if said individual has set his or her mind on only marrying someone who is a virgin, which may be almost impossible to find, though not totally impossible. Pre-marital sex is lawful when held up next to the Law of Christ, which opposes causing harm, malice, etc. to your fellowman, like stealing from them, lying about them, and having sex with another person’s spouse that they are married to. To not marry someone who has had pre-marital sex is an individual decision and is only a sin in the eyes of the individual, but it’s not a sin according to the Law of Christ because it does not cause harm, malice, ill, etc. to one’s neighbor.

            Third, you say that the first commandment is to love God. Jesus made it clear that loving your neighbor is equal to loving God. So, as I see it, loving God does not necessarily supersede loving thy neighbor as thyself since Jesus states that how you treat your neighbor, you do to God as well. Therefore, again, if you love your neighbor, you are loving God. This is in Matthew 25. Not my words. Jesus’ words. If you love God, but do not love your neighbor, you likely are considered, by God, to be a liar.

        • MGM46

          Obviously you have not read every verse of Romans 1.

          • zunelander

            Hi MGM46. It’s not really about me not reading every verse of Romans 1, because I have. It’s about what the context of the letter is and what Paul is trying to get across to those he originally wrote it to. You can’t be someone from our day and time and read Romans chapter 1 (or any other part of the bible, for that matter) as if it’s a 2013 newspaper telling a story you’re interested in reading, because it’s not a 2013 story written in a 2013 modern day state of mind, framework, or verbiage.

          • MGM46

            Context is always important but making up a context to suit your beliefs is not acceptable and there is no context there that makes homosexuality OK, to the contrary, God gave them up to their sin.

            Don’t make up a context, just say outright you are not going to follow Romans 1 and that is that.

          • zunelander

            Hi, MGM46. I’m glad to hear that you too also think context is important. However, apparently, I see one context and you see another. That’s pretty common when we’re both on the outside looking in on something we didn’t experience.

          • MGM46

            We are on the outside looking in on all the Bible but it shouldn’t stop us from believing what we read.

            I am on the outside looking in at Calvary but I realize what Christ did for us there. Don’t dance around, either believe what you read or don’t because it is your privilege to do so.

          • zunelander

            Ok! So, now, you’re assuming things about me. Or, are you? What can I do about that, if that’s what you’re doing? Not a thing. This isn’t about not believing what we read. It’s about understanding correctly what is written to discern what to believe in light of what is written. Thanks for taking the time to talk though.

          • Guest

            Ok! So, now, you’re assuming things about me. Or, are you? What can I do about that, if that’s what you’re doing? Not a thing. Thanks for taking the time to talk though.

          • amos8

            MGM46, Good luck with this conversation. With all due respect to l, this is like nailing jello to the wall.

          • zunelander

            I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that expression, but, I feel the same way.

          • MGM46

            Agreed! It is a person’s right to believe as they wish – if they will just say, I am rejecting the Scripture on a particular subject – that is their right – to pervert the Scripture and claim it says something that is absolutely clear that it does not, is attacking something that many people hold dear.

  • Janne

    Trying to help one going astray, making one realise the danger, trying to let some one realise truth and change, letting one recognise sin and the possibility of distruction is ALL LOVE, how i pray that the holy spirit would help you see such arguments positively than thinking its war against people. It is rather a war against this bad sin that sinks and hard to quit.
    Christ’s love is abandant for all But must you continue to grieve the Spirit in persistently doing what you know or have an idea that it could be wrong ??

    • Bill Womack

      Thank you for your reply Janne. While I agree that we have an awesome message of forgiveness, grace, mercy, and indeed love and that those who come to Christ can enter into an amazingly changed and victorious life, the over arching thrust many of the posts are merely the argumentative spewing of hate filled attacks against gay people. While Christians are great at using cutesy terms to hide their real agenda, their comments usually betray them. Everything that masquerades as ministry isn’t. It’s doubtful that any of these posters who are indeed at war with the gay community have ever paused their attacks long enough to actually lead a gay person to Christ!

  • batangpaslit

    Yes, sin is sin.
    We condemn sin; but, not the Sinner.
    Christ died for the Sinners.

    • Bill Womack

      My point was that we need to stop using the term, ” love the sinner but hate their sin” if are not willing to demonstrate that love . I have seen very little of that in these 418 comments unless our Christian definition of love is to treat people as the sum result of their failures and then begin the attack. That hasn’t worked and it never will. Our starting point is not what we think is wrong with a person but what we know is right with Jesus.

  • Deana Callins

    Ephesians 6:12 For we “Wrestle Not’ with flesh and blood.
    Wrestle (to struggle an opponent in an attempt to throw him or her) to contend with, violent, to fight, tussle, and contention(to argue a point to win). Also, competition, attitude, combat, and quarrel.
    From the Inside-Out (in Christ). If our Spirit is healthy. All other things around us are and will become a Manifestation of our heal-thy spirit Life. The world is the opposite. It likes to look and appear Healthy on the “Outside”, but all things within are sick. And In ‘Need’. Of ONE; spiritual Thing. A Healing Savior to Dwell on the Inside. To make All Things (in us) New!
    In The Blessing of the Spirit which IS the riches and glory of Jesus Christ. There IS Jesus, Unity of the Spirit (joined together), peace, love, joy, and mercy without limits.

    But in the Flesh: there is strife, disputes, dis-ease, competing, Self effort, Self righteousness, Selfishness, and Self. In Christ we died with him from our old nature that gave dominion to the Flesh. And with him Raised to A New Life. Of Power In His Spirit. No more led by the impulses of the Flesh. But, Now (we are) led by the Spirit of Love!

  • Sean Muzydla

    I think we are witnessing the falling away that prophecy speaks of. In watching Rob’s actions and speech tones it is my opinion that Rob Bell is struggling with being homosexual. It would not surprise me if he came out in the near future. If we do not take Gods word as the ultimate authority as what is truth and take a stand for the gospel then we are none of his. Better people than we burned at the stake for simply not bowing to the catholic wafer. I pray for just a bit of that same conviction in my walk.

    • JimLivi

      You may have a hit a serious point with your comment. His countenance spoke awkwardness/frustrated and his words were philosophical as opposed to being confident and bold as a preacher word be. There is a definite shift in Rob Bell where he wants to reinterpret the scriptures and even Jesus and Paul. Prayer: Father, I ask that You would draw Rob closer to Yourself and Your scriptures.
      In Jesus’ name.

    • kiki

      I agree. His philosophical approach, confusing antics, smirky grin,double talk, side step…. he looked a little uncomfortable and defensive of the homosexual topic. He DEFINITELY did not want to stand upon God’s Word as infallible, that is for sure.

  • Carlyle Castle

    Robb Bell is a part of the compromising false gospel message.Rather than a Christianity that transforms culture, Bell wants the church to conform to the world and deny Biblical truth. Robb Bell also believes in universalism. His words confirm to me how he preaches a gospel that denies the truth and makes it fit into the sinful culture of this day. Jesus came to set someone free from the power of sin. He delivered a relative of mine from homosexuality. When delivered his life was threatened. Homosexuality is a behavior not an identity Unfortunately Fuller Seminary supports Bell and has altered the gospel itself.

    • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

      It’s a behaviour, but it’s also a deep predisposition.

  • Mark

    Rob never actually answers the questions Andrew is asking, leading me to believe that he has left the position that we hold the Bible as our highest standard for living

    • kiki

      I ABSOLUTELY agree !!!! And that smirky, condescending grin. He treated Andrew as if he was the fool. Hmmm…better look in the mirror Rob.

  • sibilicus

    the only thing thats “shifted” is his brain! The Bible, Gods inerrant Word declares “homosexuality” an abomination. One has tobe willfully blind not to see it.

    • kiki

      God is the same yesterday, today & tomorrow. HE hasn’t changed. Man has. Man now thinks “his” rules apply. Oops, sorry, you lose. Judgement Day will certainly be a wake up call.

    • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

      Clarification: The Bible declares homosexual sex an abomination. It does not refer to people as abominations.

    • concerned believer and opposse

      theologians like Rob Bell are deceiving the people by not answering the questions correctly to the point, but they are twisting the truth around to promote and compromise with evil and wicked acts like cancer ruining the lives of so many people in the world today. Please let us try to avoid teachings like this from many theologians. we have to fall into God’s standard and not our standards and situations. God wants to cleanse us from all kinds of evil acts and purify us with the blood of Jesus Christ His only be gotten son..

  • Hans Weston

    Andrew Wilson is a hero. May we all keep the same grace filled attitude as we hold fast to truth!

    • kiki

      Andrew did a wonderful job of debating with someone that would not “lock down” on the question. Rob ran all the way around that bush. He should be a politician.

  • kevin

    notice how one side is scriptural,
    truth based and deep, while the other is shallow, experiential and trite. Rob Bell is like a deer in the headlights.

    I think this is devastating to American evangelicalism as Rob Bell was and is a hero pastor and he is shown to be a house of cards

  • Evg. Erica Hall

    Let’s not complicate that which simple or twist Gods words with our finite brains trying to be so philosophical…It’s so simple that all will have an opportunity to choose life or death, for they are the wages of sin.

  • Kevin Bettany

    I would suggest that a society which has turned its back on God seems to feel that
    the making and breaking of vows can be done with impunity; without
    coming under the judgement of God. I would suggest that the parlous
    condition of marriage in our society is one of the reasons why the
    government is debating same sex marriage; by its own wisdom it has
    come to the conclusion that by allowing same sex marriage marriage it will be
    bolstering the institution of marriage in our society! In fact it
    will certainly lead to the breaking of even more vows and a further
    undermining of traditional marriage and a healthy society.

    • zunelander

      Why would gay marriage lead to the breaking of even more marriage vows?

      • amos8

        Is homosexual behavior sinful?

        Is sin bad and/or harmful?

        • zunelander

          Hi, Amos. You already know my answer to your questions. I have already mentioned to you what I believe the Law of Christ determines to be sin and what it does not. Your questions, however, do not answer my question.

          • amos8

            I’m sorry, but I don’t know.

            A simple yes or no is what I am asking for (to these questions, and others).

            If I may say so, your responses seem to be filled with ambiguity and questions upon questions rather than answers … at least answers that are clear ( … or clear to me and my feeble mind).

            I don’t know if you would be a self-described “post-modernist” or “emergent” or “liberal” but I do know that many who do believe this way also believe that clarity is not good AND that doubting everything is good (which would explain the constant clashing of agendas here).

            If so, you do realize that this is the exact pattern of Satan and his deception (Gen 3:1ff) , and if so, does that concern you?

          • zunelander

            Hi, again, Amos8. I have spent time replying to your answers. You don’t seem to see the ‘yes’ or ‘no’ in any of my responses, I’m guessing, because my responses don’t say ‘yes’ or ‘no’. So, I will give you what you want. You will have to ask me the questions, again so I can reply, ‘yes’ or ‘no’. To the questions above that I am aware of that you asked, here is my simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ reply:

            Your Question: Is homosexual behavior sinful?
            My answer: It depends on the context. Homosexual rape, for example, would be a sinful homosexual behavior. Sorry, this is neither a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answer.

            Your Question: Is sin bad and/or harmful?
            My answer: Yes.

            I see that you are seemingly trying to compare me to Satan either because you don’t agree with what I am saying, because you don’t understand what I have said to you thus far (without ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answers), or because you think I’m trying to trick you for some reason. Please, don’t do that. It’s not fair, on your part. I believe clarity is important. But, it would seem that what I have said to you, thus far, is clear to me and not clear to you. This does not mean I am not being clear. It means you don’t understand. I am very willing to make things as clear to you as I can, but, in the end, if you still don’t get it, there is nothing I can do about that except pray that you do get it, eventually.

          • amos8

            Thanks for replying, and so quickly, and for being more clear.

            Let me address your last paragraph first. Perhaps I was not clear (enough), but I thought my questions were clear. The problem, perhaps, is that you read into and implied some ill motives on my part. Notice the “if’s” and “seems” … and in the forms of questions/opportunities for you to clarify (no pun intended). I put the ball in your court as far as “_______ believe _____ … do you believe this? And if so ______” But, to be clear, I do believe it is obvious that that continually casting doubt on God’s Word/truth is clearly the tact/pattern of Satan. Was I comparing you to Satan? Of course not, I merely posed this pattern and asked what you believed about it, especially in light of “postmodernism,” etc (while also stating/implying that not all PM’s believe this way).

            Either way, I do not believe you clearly stated what you believe about PM, the EC, and liberalism … and how you might fit into it/them (all while we both agree that not everyone is group A believes exactly the same).

            Also, your clear(er) answers help me a great deal … to see how far apart we are (with this concern/topic) as well as in the over all matters of life/God/God’s Word.

            Also, if clarity is truly important to you, I would suggest that you are not as clear as you believe, and merely asking a lot of questions of others, while you might think it brings clarity, often obfuscates the truth.

          • zunelander

            You’re welcome. First, I will say, sorry for thinking that you were implying what I thought you were implying. I did not see the reason why you would bring it up at all except that we likely disagree and so you were comparing me to Satan (because I don’t agree with you). That’s what some people do when they hear someone else’s view that is opposite of their view. The other person is automatically wrong, not them:)

            Second, I don’t know what a post modernist, emergent, or even, exactly what a liberal is. Though, I may have more of an idea of what a liberal is. I don’t label myself in that way. I am just a human being who loves God and seeks to be pleasing to God, based on my understanding of God. That’s all. Labels are irrelevant to me in that regard.

            Third, I believe I answered your above questions. Any other questions that you may have asked me, I believe I have answered as well. Unless, they did not get posted for whatever reason. You will have to ask them, again, if you wish. I have posted long posts explaining myself and what I believe, whether directly to you or to someone else. I am an open book:) As a result of my long explanatory posts, I think I have been clear. If you require ‘yes’ or ‘no’ replies to your questions, I understand why you might think I have not been clear. I know that sometimes when we are typing something, we understand it as we are typing it, yet the other person still does not get it based on what we typed. What one person does not get, others do get. I understand that too. Some people require more explanation than others. I am like that on occasion:)

  • Dave Turner

    This topic is so ‘loaded’ that most approach it with their ‘presupposational bias’ filtering any response given. The question posed by Andrew, not really answered directly by Rob, seems perfectly valid to me. In fact it is probably one of the key questions to be addressed in this debate. On the other hand I can understand Rob’s obvious irritation with the focus given to this subject at the cost of other issues – but if this was the focus of the debate then surely a concise answer regarding how one reaches one’s conclusions should not be too much of an ask. Andrew was clear, Rob seemed too vague for someone contradicting the orthodox position held for thousands of years. Surely this would be one of the 1st questions one would ask oneself when approaching such an issue.
    Still… let’s seek to establish why we hold our own position rather than just hurling the stones of our own theological presuppositions at one ‘caught’ in an act of what I believe to be ‘interpretive adultery’. Let’s return to the scripture and re-look at the issue in the light of questions we may not have asked before, and then, having confidently established our view let’s LIVE it with peaceful humility!

  • Conroy Ja Walker

    What is norm today is not necessary what God is pleased with. Homosexuality is opposite to God’s plan. I serve a God who will not change his stance. Do many of these people really believe Sadom was a real city with real homosexuality.

  • terrep263

    Again this is all relative to desire.Like all other sin homosexuality is based in selfish desire rather than submitting to the will and ways of God. Maturity in God demands submission to his will not our own.The issue here is CULTURAL which is not the same as KINGDOM thinking. Culture teaches self,me and I. Kingdom teaches God, us and we. These self seeking traits are the same ones that are characteristic of satan.

  • Pastor Mike

    Sin is defined clearly in scripture. There is no ambiguity. Marriage, which is divine and created for man by God has a definition created by God. This is clearly seen by any child who turns the pages of the Bible. Neither is up for speculation. The phrase R.B. continues to use is “the world” and he is correct. “The world” or society defines things according to trends, while God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is unchanging. It seems R.B. wants the acceptance of the world and the acceptance his Heavenly Father at the sametime. The two are exclusive. Sadly R.B.’s heart is divided. We are not of this world. Our enemy, who is obviously in control of R.B. reveals himself in confusion and deception. He responds with answers that are unclear to hide his lies in order to derail the weak minded. After watching R.B.’s responses and reading the respones of some of the individuals on this page I can see clearly this tactic of the false God reveled. Read your Bible . . . it is Very clear. Leave your desires, experience, presuppositions and expectation to the side and let Holy Spirit lead you into all truth. I am sad for the condition of the church after reading some of these posts. We are called to a higher standard not to accept the world and allow it to define God’s word but to stand for what he (God) has clearly and consistently said is right. Scripture does not adjust to societal norms. It is a constant that always points to the true Constant . . . God. Does Paul’s experience, personality and society have an influence on the text? Certainly, Paul say on more than one occasion “this is my opinion. However, to say that Paul’s society defines the letters he wrote is to cast out the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the relevance of scripture through the ages. . Finally, our God, the one and ONLY God as he calls himself is NOT a God of confusion. Again He is clear! Sorry R.B. you have forgotten the face of your father.

  • LFpastor

    Robb Bell is a fool – spiritually speaking. This is what high intellectualism absent of the presence of God will do. Robb Bell IS as destructive as homosexuality gone un-challenged. He totally dodged this issue and was taken to the wood-shed! Great job Andrew – wish the moderator would have stopped giving Robb a way out by interrupting!

  • Judi

    I find it interesting the number of times in the comments there is confusion or misunderstood understanding with each other…and this is taking place in the “present.” Is in not possible, as we read scripture, which has been translated a number of times, and misinterpret scripture. Furthermore, if we wish to use wholly use scripture as is currently-scholarly-traditionally understood, why are we not all veggie loving (when humans were not meat eaters until kicked out of Eden), non obese people? Scripture. Jesus and Paul all had something to say about those issues. Rather, we pick an issue that the masses do not live with; and condemn. Why are Christians not living communally , as first century? I am regularly saddened by “Christians” who play God and condemn others. We are so quick to quote John 3:16, yet so easily forget John 3:17-18.
    I found Andrew very grace-filled. We should stretch and challenge each other, but many comments here condemn…not even Jesus was sent to do that.

    • MGM46

      Have you ever heard of rightly dividing the word of truth – have you ever read this scripture concerning the OT Scriptures

      Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

      Why are we not veggie only eating people – because we can read the NT and realize that we are not under the dietary restrictions of the OT.

      When a topic is condemned in the OT and then again in the NT guess what? Hopefully you did guess correctly, if not, you are without human hope.

    • Shimmer128

      Men were not meat eaters until after the flood.

  • HairRazor

    As the delusion of righteousness is torn away, exposed is the one that stands naked before the Holy God with the blood of the decieved driping from his fingertips. As the crushing approach to the realization of the condemnation about to be bestowed and as the unquenching agony rises to an unwavering consciousness he hears the words, “I never knew you. Depart from Me, you worker of iniquity.” Be afraid.

  • Michael Waldron

    No more wasting time throwing the pearls to swine.

  • Pastor Mark

    Rob Bell seems to be an expert in not answering questions with a straight answer. Lord Jesus help him……HE NEEDS SAVING!!!

  • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

    Screen capture this and, in 15 years look back at these comments and see how ridiculous and small-box God they are.

    • Jack

      Go ahead, show us where “big-box God” condones and celebrates homosexuality.

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        It is not even in the Bible to show or not show. And, my God is not even in a big box.
        March BOLDLY out of 1970, it is so enlightening and freeing to NOT hate people for who that naturally are. Or, stay stuck and condemn away.
        Good night.

    • amos8

      “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

      The truth is a BIG deal. People do believe lies. People do love sin. People are deceived. People are condemned because of these. God does/will send the “a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.”

      Do you really think in 15 years we will be more enlightened? Or more deceived and in wickedness? (2 Tim 3:1-8; 4:3-4)

      • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

        Some of us will be able to/have looked at the Scriptures in light and context of LGBT people that we indeed see the Spirit of God in and others . . . while others, they continue to condemn an entire class of people that they have little to no understanding of.
        Hopefully within the nest 15 years, you will come into a relationship that will challenge your boxed in understanding. God put His Spirit where you do not approve, oh well.

        • amos8

          Irony upon irony …

          You have judged and condemned me (and my beliefs) and for (supposedly) judging the beliefs/behavior of others. If that is fixed then communication/dialogue will be more fruitful. Furthermore, you MIS-judged me/my beliefs. It is one thing if I say I believe A, and then you disagree, or even judge me/A to be wrong. I would be fine with that. But, in the context of condemning “condemning” you judge, and condemn, my supposed beliefs. I have run into multitudes who do this, but it is extremely rare for someone to admit this when challenged AND to change it.

          [most just AVOID it, because if this is wrong, then they have to re-examine their foundational beliefs and might have to admit their other beliefs/assertions might be wrong, and they might have to change those ... and admit error to others. and .... So avoidance and/or further judging/attacking and/or minimizing or justifying it is often the response.]

          What would you say to/of the people who come to me and others (who I/we have “come into a relationship”) and have told me of their concern/grief over their own “LGBT” desires/behavior? They want help NOT to do this, to be apart of this, and THEY tell me, according to the context of LGBT people and Scripture that THEY believe it is wrong, etc (before I say a word about it, before we read any Scripture).

          It seems, and correct me, that you asserted that I would tell them that God did not put his Spirit where I do not approve. (a judgement and condemnation on my part, of course!).

          • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

            That is a WHOLE bunch of assumptions that i can’t even keep up with.
            This exchange would be a black hole of silliness. My assumption. Bye.

          • amos8

            It is always interesting how people respond to this (and to any quantifiable/objective error). I was really pulling for you. There is hope IF we acknowledge or confess our error or sin (Prov 28:13; 1 Jn 1:9).

            As I described the common responses …

            [most just AVOID it, because if this is wrong, then they have to
            re-examine their foundational beliefs and might have to admit their other beliefs/assertions might be wrong, and they might have to change those ... and admit error to others. and .... So avoidance and/or further judging/attacking and/or minimizing or justifying it is often the response.]

            So, we are back to how important truth is, and how destructive lies and deception are. At some point God does “give people over …” and/or “give them a powerful delusion…”

          • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

            [or maybe] they just get (tired/bored) … and uninterested in “having an exchange” WITH you.

          • amos8

            [most just AVOID it, because if this is wrong, then they have to
            re-examine
            their foundational beliefs and might have to admit their other
            beliefs/assertions might be wrong, and they might have to change those
            ... and admit error to others. and .... So avoidance and/or further
            judging/attacking and/or minimizing or justifying it is often the
            response.]

          • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

            oh now I see how we play this game;

            [or maybe] they just get (tired/bored) … and uninterested in “having an exchange” WITH you.

          • amos8

            No games. Just concern … and hope. Personal responsibility brings hope. We all struggle with taking too much or too little, and this ends up determining much of our lives (Prov 28:13; 1 Jn 1:9).

            This, too, is why it is soooo important to be accurate (as much as we humans can be) with what is, and is not sin (or personal responsibility). My motives, if anyone wants to know, is that people have an accurate understanding of who God is and what we are to do, and not do. If we reject this, as Scripture tells us many will do, then what hope is there?

  • Wondering mind

    Hmm, I’m not finding Rob’s definition of sin in the Bible. If a “culpable disturbance of shalom” is the Biblical definition of sin, then as long as we can get all society lined up to see things a certain way it should no longer be sinful. Where is the reference to God, His holiness, His law, His original perfect creation in this picture?

    • mkdb

      Great comment!

      “… then as long as we can get all society lined up to see things a certain way it should no longer be sinful.”

      Yes, that is the hope/goal of most of the emergent church–getting all of society in harmony. The only problem is those “pesky” Pharisees keep messing things up by insisting that it is not “Culture over Scripture” rather it is “God’s Word is supreme. That is why so many emergents hate “conservatives”and those who insist on Scripture and its authority, objectivity, supremacy, etc.

      BTW: many of them do believe in a God of justice, just not a God of eternal justice. He is merely a God of justice for temporary things (e.g. social justice; economic justice; etc)

  • Jared

    Paul prophesied:

    Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. – 2 Timothy 4:2-4.

    If Rob is correct that all interpretations are valid, and that I can interpret scripture one way, and he another way and both be valid, then there is no reason to put stock in scripture as anything other than personal inspiration. But it is certainly no longer the word of God. And its authority is only subjective in nature. It is the belief that all truth is relative and equal, your truth is as good as mine, even if they directly contradict.

    But I am curious then why Isaiah says that we are to test all things by the scripture and that if someone says something that disagrees with it it is because they are not speaking by inspiration of God (Isa 8:20). Or what about when Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will lead us into “all truth” John 16:13? This is the same Holy Spirit which inspired the Bible doctrines to begin with (2 Peter 1:20-21). Even Paul above says that there is such a thing as sound doctrine and there are myths.

    I guess what I am saying is that what Rob is presenting as a legitimate way of interpreting scripture is only possible if we take away the authority of that scripture to interpret it the way it says it is to be interpreted. Or to say it another way, to impose upon the Bible a system of interpretation that contradicts the method the Bible says we are to use to discover truth. Thus the imposed system trumps what the Bible has to say in the first place. This seems to me to trample on the relevance of God’s word, for it relegates it to each ones personal choice on how to construe the text. The plain word of God is no longer the plain word of God, but a series of sayings that have no meaning but the meaning I choose to put there. The motivation then is changed from seeking to discover truth as it is in Scripture, to seeking to find ways to interpret it in ways that support my personally held views and ideas. And that sounds to me, exactly what Paul is talking about above. This is a sign of the time.

    • Thomas Latcham

      I have struggled with homosexual temptation – or the flirting of ideas within my mind for years and I can honestly say I am not homosexual although I see the attraction. Having said that I know the difference between a lie and the truth. And I can recognise in my spirit as a child of Jesus that to take the fatherhood of a man and make it into very little by perverting a relationship meant for two of the opposite sex as God designed and put two men together to love in that same intimacy is damaging.

      What is more I love homosexuals because Jesus taught me through reading His teaching in scripture to love sinners as He does.

      Welcome the homosexual.

      Do not welcome the sin that seperates his understanding from the true nature of his Heavenly father.

  • Rita

    Has Mr Bell forgotten about the power of the Holy Spirit and his ability with the word of God to transform the heart with the result of the manifestation of that person being a new creature in Christ Jesus. It amazes me how many people will lose their souls by rejecting Gods standards because of people they know who nice people and are in opposition to what the bible says, rather it be homosexuality or other lifestyles that are against what Gods word says . But who would give up that six figure income because they know a nice person who is not hired because they don’t have that education or expertise to be hired , what is more important that position you will on average work on forty or fifty years or your eternity that that goes on far beyond your earthly years. Look there are many former homosexuals who have been truly transformed by the power of God the key is to stay in the spirit as Gal.5:16 says and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh look all of us have given up things that were in direct opposition to Gods word I was addicted to porn for thirty years I have been transformed by the renewing of my mind, Mr Bell get back to your first love put the Father ahead of your friends then you can truly love them and help them.

  • The Freakin Deacon

    Rob Bell won’t answer the question because i think he’s more concerned with the number of people in his ministry. I think he is trying to ear tickle and he needs to be reminded of the millstone that is going to be tied around his neck for improper teaching! There is no other way to interpret “abomination”. Homosexuality is a sin. period. The Bible is inerrant and doesn’t change. The same rules apply today as in the times of Moses! Rob Bell…you’re letting people down. Check yourself before you wreck yourself!

  • Frank

    Wilson’s last comment of how Rob is interpreting the scriptures didn’t get answered, which i will assume is simply to follow the crowd. To say this is only an issue for today hasn’t read about sodom. God didn’t approve then and He doesn’t approve now. Love the sinner, but hate the sin, don’t argue about the sin, just present Jesus and let the Spirit work.

  • Jeff Martin

    I disagree with Rob, but he is right, “Who are the one’s with the tickling ears?” He is saying that he feels like he is constantly getting pounded on this issue over and over again and he feels that Christians should focus more on greed and gossip than gay and gait. And I agree. It seemed to me the original purpose of this episode was not solely to talk about homosexuality but it did end up there

    • amos8

      Bell’s (and liberals) assertion here is a Red Herring.

      The “focus” happens to be on “gay” (and I am not sure what you mean by “gait”) because there is a powerful (mainly political) movement that is demanding that “gay” is right! If there ever a “gossip political lobby” demanding that gossiping is right, and not against Scripture or mankind, then this would most definitely have more “focus.”

  • shadedred

    this is exactly what we are warned about in 1Tim 4:1-2 and 2Peter 2:1-3, he has made the bible his words instead of the word of God!

  • Dan

    It is the spirit of the age. Jesus said that spiritual deception would increase as a sign of His return being near in Matthew 24. In verse 24 He said this deception would be so strong that, if possible, even the elect could be deceived. The spirit of the age calls monogamous homosexuality love but it is anything but that. We’re on a slippery slope.This spiritual deception is accelerating at an alarming rate. Major denominations and people like Rob Bell condoning homosexuality and same sex marriage is a primary example of this. We as Christ followers must remain solidly committed to God’s word.

    .

  • Don Jabaay

    If Rob had things his way, the early Church would have adapted to their pagan culture instead of God’s word, His Spirit, and Christ’s Church changing, transforming the culture. According to Rob, would 1 man and 2 women in a committed relationship be pleasing in God’s sight? Rob is surrendering to the world instead of submitting to the Lordship of Christ and His word.

  • vicki

    As one well-known Theologian said, “Farewell, Rob Bell” … I too believe Rob Bell is following the world view and not what God’s Word says. I shudder to think of all the Christians who are listening to him and following his world view on numerous biblical subjects….he is deceiving people with his own truth. The Truth of the Gospel that has never changed and is our only plumb line (not Rob Bell’s plumb line).

  • SALLYFARRAR

    Bell is for monogamy…..so, gay, monogamous marriage is cool.
    Right?

  • SALLYFARRAR

    Bell is for monogamy…..so, gay, monogamous marriage is cool.
    Right?

  • mkdb

    “…always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth–men of depraved minds…”