7 Things Jesus Would Say to the LGBT Community

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7 powerful ways to speak the truth in love in this often-difficult conversation.

Note: This article originally appeared here at the Aquila Report.

The Bible affirms the importance of human relationship and provides wise guidance on how we can be healthy and happy people here and in eternity. God as our creator made us as we are, knows what is best for us under all circumstances, and made the guidelines clear in his Word. He also knows what will wreck our lives and bring destruction of body, soul and society.

Was there ever a country taken over as quickly in our lifetime as Crimea was? So quickly did that annexation come that the world could not even get its diplomats in place when for all practical purposes it was over. I cannot recall anything happening as fast as that since studying the sinking of that great ship, the Titanic. Down she went to the bottom in a matter of hours.

We in the Christian Reformed Church have neatly tucked away a very fine denominational position statement on homosexuality, affirming that love, support and encouragement should be given to those who experience same-sex attractions, while maintaining that homosexual practices are “incompatible with obedience to the will of God” as are all other sinful practices.

Our statement is clear, but what are we as a church body and as individuals in that body doing to address the cataclysmic shift taking place in our culture on these matters and to actually embrace for ourselves the responsibilities that our statement calls us to, namely addressing with the life-changing gospel those overtaken in “explicit and overt homosexual practices”?

One might wonder just how fast is our culture changing?

So quickly is this wave overcoming us that only two years ago no major national candidate could win an election who endorsed the gay agenda, [New York Times for 4/6/14] and now the reverse is true.

The church as a body and we as individuals have a scriptural obligation to speak to the world on moral issues and not give our silent consent to evil.

I write this simply wanting to begin another denominational conversation, for I have read a great deal, thought and prayed long and hard on this, and still do not see clearly either the biblical norms and how they actually apply or the way to really reach out in love and effectiveness to those caught within these sinful practices.

Pastors have training in handling the other sexual sins, but the sexual sins becoming so dominant today bring in their wake very little counsel so far for helpers and many undiscussed problems to work out. Yet we are biblically commanded to speak out to warn the wicked to turn from their wicked deeds and lifestyle so that they may live(NET, Ezek. 3:1). We also hopefully can follow in the steps of Jesus who was able to treat first the heart and then tell his listeners to go and sin no more.

May the following seven things begin to move us to thinking and action. The Lord seems to say in his word to all sinners (and that includes those in the LGBT community):

1. I love you because I created you and came to save you!

(Ps. 86:15; Jo. 3:16; Rom. 5:8; I Jo. 4:8-10)

The God of the Bible from ancient times is known as being a loving and compassionate God who is full mercy and love, especially for those who will come to him.

Christ, the Son of God, was sent to win the hearts of sinners to God so that they could have a full and free relationship with the Lord for eternity. The reality is that God sent Christ into this world even though all had rebelled against God and no one really on their own sought God’s friendship.

When all peoples were still rebels, Christ died to save those who would receive Him as their Savior. Christ came to save the lost no matter what they have done or who they are.

When that happens, God is both our creator and savior.

George M. McGuire is a retired pastor in the Christian Reformed Church.

More from George McGuire or visit George at http://theaquilareport.com

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  • Santmpier

    Thoughtful, but useless article, when it begins on false presumptions. So very misinformed and short-sighted.

    • Reg

      False assumptions? Explain.

    • dadta hensley

      As long the sodomites are not pampered and promoted in any given line of thought is useless, it is bigotry, it is self-righteousness it is everything else but good. It is understandable, people who are involved such things have quite a different kind of mind-set. So Brethren, let’s keep hammering on this ill called homosexuality , we have duty to inform,warn and direct sinners to repentance and to come Jesus Christ.

      • Doreen A Mannion

        I’m already with Christ, thanks.

        • soldoutbeliver

          if you still living in sin then no you are not. Jesus said Go and sin no more

    • David

      I am interested in your explanation of “false presumptions” and how the article is misinformed and short-sighted. Those kinds of statements are “thoughtful, but useless” without actually examples.

  • PAorangeburg

    Beautiful and truthful. Very scriptural and thank you for sharing.

  • Tim Wright

    I do not condemn you, go and sin no more.

    • David

      The key here is that you are to “go and sin no more.” None of us here are doing the condemning. But we agree with Christ here that what they are doing is sin. And we urge them to repent (turn around, flee the evil, cleave to the good) just as Christ did. God has already condemned sin. John 3:16 Jesus said “God so loved the world that He gave His only Son” but goes on to say in just a few verses “And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

  • jonathan hart

    the problem with this artical is that it is comming from a stand point that LGTB peoples love is not real love it is just temptation which is wrong as Love is Love and we as christians must condenmn Hate not Love as god is love and love is God as it says the he bible so stop condemning Love and God

    • dadta hensley

      Is it love or lust?

    • http://thewaytheballbounces.blogspot.com BallBounces

      Incest, pederasty, adultery, and polygamy are also rooted in love.

      • Doreen A Mannion

        Wrong

    • David

      Jonathan, please read your Bible. God hates sin. Homosexual behavior is sin. Why would we want to hide God’s displeasure over those who “will not enter the kingdom of heaven”? Should we rather not seek to bring them to fear the Lord and repent of their sins that they may be washed and renewed by the Holy Spirit? Just because it may be love does not mean it is not temptation to sin! I can really love my girlfriend and “make love” with her but it is still sin! We are not setting out to destroy human love but rather to see the world redeemed.

    • http://www.churchaccomplished.com/ Dave

      Jonathan, God is love! Indeed. I love my mother and my sons, but if I have sexual relationships with them, that is ungoldy, sinful, and not God’s will. You see, love is not the same as sex. There are many loving relationships where sex would be ungodly and sinful. I love my same-sex attracted friends. If we pretend that love is sex, so sex is always good, we sin greatly!

  • Reginald

    Maybe we should take a step back on something this article made me realize. It is clear that the LGBT community is given over to the desires and pleasures of the flesh; yet this article in its addressing them is trying to get them to choose the joy and eternal survival of the soul.

    Is it possible that the appeal to them to choose the future survival of the soul over the present pleasures of the flesh is meaningless if they really don’t understand what a soul is or its importance?

    It’s seems like it would be the same as going to a toddler that is having the time of their life playing with their favorite toy and ask them to let that go now and dad will buy you a Ferrari in college. How does that sound to a toddler that knows nothing about a ferrari?

  • Juliana

    What does Jesus say to all of us no matter how sin has taken hold of us:

    repent (first a change of mind, then a turning, a change of actions, from all sin and wrong).
    believe and trust/rest in Me as your Savior.
    receive the free gift of eternal life and live forever.

    Yes to all this….but we should add, “whatever you do DON’T try to do anything after that involving anyone from the church unless you want to be treated, consitently and persistently, like something they dragged in on the bottom of their shoe”. Shame on you pharisees.

  • singuar

    Excellent article. For you dissenters, the real conflict is the authority of the Bible over the Church. Obviously you reject the teaching of scripture concerning sin. That being so, there is no way we can ever agree on this issue. Nothing else really needs to be said.

    • ragemin

      Plain simple and to the point. Reject the authority of the word of God and there is no standard for conversation. Well said.

  • RJ

    I think Jesus would say that same kinds of things to people who are acquisitive, gluttonous, adulterers, gossips, etc. The question is, how do we, as the church handle them? How do we communicate love and acceptance for the people without condoning the acts. In the case of the acquisitive, or gluttonous, we usually say nothing. In the case of LGBT people the trend has been either to say, “You must change before we will welcome you,” or, “Let us bless your relationships.” Neither of those responses is faithful. It’s tough to communicate love and yet maintain a Christian morality when the topic is as hot as the LGBT topic is right now. A quick read of the comments shows that much.

    • livethelife46

      I agree with your first statement, that he would say the same thing to others and we should as well; however, my question would be is it difficult to “communicate love, and maintain a Christian Morality” or is it that the church is afraid of losing the cultural popularity contest by doing those two things… It is completely possible to speak the truth in love on this topic, but that does not mean that the world at large will accept what you say.

      • RJ

        I agree with you on this. The problem comes from the many people who have spoken the truth without love on this topic. When someone does speak the truth with love, they voices of a thousand others who have spoke with venom are in the background. Until we can speak in love, we need to keep our mouths shut and let those who can speak with love tell the truth.

        • Reginald

          And who is the judge of intent of what is spoken?

          Is truth spoken loudly that is meant to correct, rebuke and exhort one to repentance not in love………because it was with a loud tone?

          • RJ

            Sometimes it might be difficult to judge, but when someone protests across the street from a funeral with signs that read, “God hates fags,” I think we can be pretty sure there is an absence of love.

          • soldoutbeliver

            So you are lumping a “cult” to everyone else that commented on this thread?

          • RJ

            umm…no. There are, however, a few comments that seem to be fairly close to that mentality toward LGBT people. The term sodomite, for example, is unacceptable. You can convey the truth without using slurs. I recognize that the word appears in the King James version of the Bible, but so does cripple and leper. Both of those terms are insulting, and not used.

            It’s not about political correctness. It’s about communicating respectfully and with love.

            I was also speaking of the other side of the argument, the side that asks us to bless the sin when I said, “A quick read of the comments…” I think calling everyone who says that homosexuality is a sin ignorant is not very loving either. Looking at the exchanges below shows that the heat of the topic makes a right response difficult to voice and difficult to receive at best.

          • soldoutbeliver

            Maybe those got deleted , I have not seen any comments come close to the Phelps “cult”.

  • David

    I disagree with almost everything in the article and the use of scripture. Pulling out a few Bible verses as proof that God hates homosexual acts can also be done in favor of slavery, women’s subjugation, and polygamy, etc. The one section from Romans 1 about doing what is unnatural also is now shown to be a great section on the judgment of God, but not as we understand sexuality today. For some, GLBT is natural. To deny a loving relationship to people that are naturally born that way seems ridiculous and counter to Saint Paul’s arguments. As we understand sexuality today, we should be supporting loving, adult relationships in whatever form they come in. Those that agree with this article will be left behind to judge other things that the world has moved on about. It took some churches decades to get over the loss of slavery and this issue is working out exactly the same way. Yes, it’s different. Yes, it’s scary. You might even be judged by the religious people in your particular faith community, but there are others out there that will welcome you. Move on!

    • Reginald

      Actually…….it is many other parts of the Bible as well; Jude 1:7 and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18 come to mind initially for me though.

      But it brings up a question……….Exactly how many times does it (or anything) needs to be mentioned in the Bible before it can be considered the truth? What is the number count threshold for biblical truth?

      When you finish answering that, I have another question……..You said, ” As we understand sexuality today, we should be supporting loving, adult relationships in whatever form they come in.”

      What about an adult indulging in bestiality?

      • Amos8

        “Exactly how many times does it (or anything) needs to be mentioned in
        the Bible before it can be considered the truth? What is the number
        count threshold for biblical truth?”

        That number, apparently, varies, depending on the level of what the current culture wants or feels. It seems, in the hearts of many, we can discount any Scripture as long as the new teaching sounds good, feels good, or is accepted by enough people in politically correct circles (2 Tim 4:3-4; Is 30:9-11).

        The standard today, even for many self-proclaim Christians, is not the objective Word of God. It is subjective … even among a growing number of self-proclaiming conservative Christians. (e.g. mysticism; feelings and experiences; man’s “wisdom”/counseling theories).

    • Eric

      I take it your probably not a believer. As true followers of Christ, we are to love what He loves and hate what He hates. God obviously loves the sinner but hates the sexual immorality within them. To justify and try to make it look ok totally goes against Gods standards….but I guess your standards are better than Gods, thats why you’ve gotten over it.

    • http://stasisonline.wordpress.com Tom

      How is it counter to Paul’s ideology? Paul repeatedly portrayed homosexual acts as being sinful.

    • Fresh66

      Sorry David your talking absolute nonsense. Science has proved after extensive research there is no gay gene. So your statement about people being born that way doesn’t stand up nor will it stand up when judged by fire. Gods natural order of things has been distorted and corrupted by satan and also man. Anything outside of the guidelines given to by God will be judged. I’m sorry but for man it seems that anything goes bit not so with God. His will and not ours is the way to live. End of

  • Charles

    Iraneus of Lyon once said that when heretics are refuted by Holy Scripture, they impeach the Scriptures. Wise words that prove there is nothing new under the sun.

    Clearly homosexuality is not God’s plan. Saying they just “want to love” rationalizes and misuses the love Scriptures. Consider the move now to legalize and norm pedophilia. Using deductive reasoning with the love Scriptures, hall we, then endorse that, since they just “want to love?” What about heterosexuals who just “want to love?” Is marital infidelity or unrestricted fornication OK?

    Jeremiah teaches us that nothing is too difficult for our God. Certainly He’s capable of delivering anyone from any sin…if they want Him to do so.

    Are we to make our way based on emotions and social pressures, or do we progress, as God’s people, based on His unchanging Word?

    For my parish and I, we will choose the Word.

    Of course homosexuality is out of bounds. But it’s not the only sin in the Satanic playbook. It’s just getting the most attention right now. And we’re all sinners, and need deliverance.

    And it’s there…if we want it.

    • Reginald

      Amen! Thank you Brother Charles! Boldness to speak truth and stand upon it is becoming a rare quality.

    • Rachel Stocker Allen

      wow, love this addition to an already awesome article – thanks for this post, Charles!

    • Fresh66

      Gay people are not a special case. They are sinners just like the rest of us. Jesus would have said the same to them and probably did in His days on earth. That being Repent because the kingdom of God is near. Every man and woman needs Christ no matter what they are doing. Gay people non gay people, drunks, child molesters all must repent or perish.

  • Kathy Verbiest Baldock

    You might want to ask some LGBT Christians what the Spirit IS saying to their community and LISTEN.

    • Reginald

      If it is truly the Holy Spirit, it should be the same thing He says to us…….

      I would also take caution in that term “LGBT Christians”………

    • Wendy Pawsey

      What is the Holy Spirit saying to their community?

    • Peter Mahoney

      We know what God is saying to the LGBT community. It’s the same gracious glorious message he has been proclaiming from the beginning… REPENT for the kingdom of God is at hand.”

    • Amos8

      Listen to the LGBT? Definitely!

      Listen to what the Spirit HAS said in his written Word. Yes! We will listen to God’s Word infinitely more than any group (even “denominational” groups).

      Listen to what God has warn us about when it comes to “lying spirits”? Yes, yet more and more are following lying spirits and claiming them to be good. YIKES!

      And so where one or more groups are in conflict with the superlative, objective Standard and Authority, we will not only go with Scripture, but we will lovingly teach the truth, and “correct” those who conflict with God’s Word, and will continually examine our own hearts with even more passion.

      In order to love any individual or group [LGBT, the NRA, the GOP, the DNC, the NBA, the SBC] we speak the truth in love.

      The most loving thing we can do is warn of the eternal consequences (and temporary ones as well) of sin and the hope that comes with accurate confession, repentance, and faith. Yet this supreme way of loving is now called “hate” by many liberal Christians (and a growing number of non-liberal), and NOT warning of these and giving the truth and hope is now “love,” “compassion,” etc!

      The two main responses from liberals tends to be either avoidance or evasive, redirecting, snarky personal attacks.

    • Doug Bristow

      The Holy Spirit is telling them to repent and leave behind the ways of the immorality of the LGBT which obviously is in conflict with the spirit they currently listen to.

    • Eric Torres

      LGBT christians? There are no such thing. Its like saying, christian porn. Jesus said that those who are His would be known by their fruit. Those who are His hear His voice. Jesus has spoken loud and clear on this matter. I totally agree that Jesus loves them, we are to love them, and the same blood that was shed for every liar, thief, murderer, etc was also shed for every gay person. If the LGBT community are christians, why would there be any need to change? There would be no point to this article and these responses.

  • victor

    Christ on the cross for all , it’s a free gift but we cannot serve both Kingdom only One
    Matthew 6:24 “no one can serve two masters, for eithter he will hate the one and love the other ”
    We still love them and share the truth of God’s word without preaching hate and hell – show what God’s love can do

  • Doreen A Mannion

    How prideful of you to try and speak for Christ.

    • Peter Mahoney

      The Scriptures are God’s eternal unchanging word to his people… they don’t speak for Christ, the Scriptures are Christ speaking to his people. Every Christ-Follower also speaks for Christ… in our actions and in our speech. When the content of our lives flow contrary to his unchanging word, we besmirch and stain the name of Christ.

      The pride you speak of is isn’t really pride… it’s foolishness. To exchange the truth of God for a lie will ultimately separate people from God for all eternity.

    • Reginald

      Acts 18:9-10 ~ And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.”

      Luke 12:11-12 ~ When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.

      Acts 23:11 ~ But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified FOR ME in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome.”

      In case you didn’t notice…….Each of those passages are spoken by the Lord Jesus…….

      So you call us prideful?? I say……….Yes I am very proud and immensely privileged to witness for my Savior!

    • Todd N Gina Farnsworth

      He is quoting scripture..he is not speaking for anyone. The Bible are God’s Words…wow.!

    • Amos8

      Do you equally judge and condemn those who write/speak in similar ways, but are more in agreement with your beliefs? If not, then you can learn a lot.

      If you do equally judge and condemn, then you are also in error and can learn a lot (as pointed out several times by several people below).

      Do you believe judging is wrong … but realize how you judged him? If so, you can learn a lot here.

      Another thing to learn and that will help you, you redirected the focus (and did so exceedingly in error) and, therefore, did not address the many specific assertions or truths put forth. While deceivers often use this tactic, I don’t think you are one of them, but you did follow that tactic … and it is a sure way to remain in error.

      Love is not protecting those involved with sin from the truth. Yet many seem to believe and live the opposite. No matter how good our motives are, this is the opposite of love.

    • God is Love

      way to go Doreen! Let Jesus speak for Himself! He say marriage is between a man and a woman!

    • chance

      Isn’t that what God calls us to do? Go out and spread the Gospel.

  • TrthEtn

    Most excellent, lovingly presented, biblically based theology. God’s Word makes it clear He LOVES EVERYONE and that we are all sinners in need of God’s grace. That grace comes in admitting our sins and repenting – turning away from those sins. There are behaviors we humans engage in that are sinful and can condemn our souls. Homosexuality is only one of those behaviors. It is specifically identified and condemned throughout the Bible (OT & NT) as unholy behavior and something God abhors. So, is adultery, lying, coveting, gluttony, murdering, not honoring the Sabbath, etc. I love all people – straight, gay, bi-sexual, transgendered; red and yellow, black and white – but I am not going to pretend the Bible supports sexual sins. Then I put my soul at risk for presenting a gospel that is not true. Even if I want God’s Word to say something else, it doesn’t.

  • Peter Mahoney

    Biblical, compassionate, and uncompromising. Well done.

  • Joseph

    Very good article. Thanks you for taking the time to wright it. A couple things come to mind I would like to say. 2 kinds of gay people it seems those who know there sinning and repentant and struggling to get better and then there’s those that want
    to act like there not doing anything wrong both require different
    responses. It seems that the problem we are having is that sin is being
    taught as righteousness.. I mean I have no problem with a brother that
    struggles with sexual sin who admits it, it becomes a problem when they
    ignore God’s word and then twist it to say something it does not.. Don’t
    get me wrong there are some gray situations out there but this is not
    one of them.. Again thinks for the article and the many good points you made.

    • don

      Joseph, I respectfully disagree with you. I don’t think you can categorize all gay people into two categories. Any more than you can lump any large group together with such crude definitions. There are as many different categories as there are people who struggle with anything that is a product of sin. As there are people who are born blind or without limbs, I am convinced there are woman born with male bodies, and vice versa. I have known many gay women who aren’t trying to act or look masculine, it is just who they are. And the same with men who look, act and sound feminine. I will agree, there are many people who exaggerate this type of behavior intentionally, looking for attention or just trying to be provocative. But again, there are far too many unique possibilities to just lump everyone into a couple categories. I pray the heart of the church turns towards looking at individual lives, and praying for people according to how God leads, as opposed to picketing and protesting lifestyles. People are what matters to God, not agendas.

      • Reginald

        But in one aspect, you can lump all sinners into this same category……They (me included) need to repent of our sin and surrender to Christ for salvation in order to enter the kingdom of heaven

        • Joseph

          Exactly. The 2 groups are either repentant or unrepentant.. Can’t think of any other simpler way to explain. The soul does not die by sin but by impenitence.

      • Joseph

        Right, I didn’t mean to ignore the more complicated aspects of this particular brand of sin just wanted to add some thoughts I had on the subject at the time.. I’m curious you said you disagreed and then gave the point you disagreed on but what did you think about the part were I said sin is being taught as righteous, or the part were we don’t confess sin but justify it?

  • JesusIsLove

    I’m sorry but I do not see Jesus even mention homosexuality in the Bible, let alone condemn it. Though it may condemn it in other parts of the Bible, you can’t truly follow the commands without challenging its validity. Samuel 15:3 – “This is what the Lord Almighty says… ‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”. So you’re saying God approves of, and even encourages genocide?
    You may say, the Bible is the holy word, we as Christians have a duty to follow it. Jesus himself, even challenges the scriptures when he heals on the Sabbath, quoting just one example. Please don’t tell me what Jesus would say.
    Despite saying this, I like the way you have written what Jesus would say in a loving and compassionate way because that is what Jesus is all about, but it cannot apply to homosexuality.

    • God is Love

      Jesus said marriage is between a man and a woman. He didn’t have to say gay marriage, pedophilia, sex with an animal, sex with a tree, etc. are wrong because He already defined it.

      • JesusIsLove

        Or perhaps he didn’t have to say a marriage is between ‘a man and a woman’, ‘a man and a man’ or ‘a woman and a woman’. It can work either way you want.
        Besides, you cannot compare homosexuality with pedophilia, and all the others you said. The others are all rape (one sided), homosexuality is love (two sided). Completely different.

        • Reginald

          Biblically you can compare them……….They are all sin; all outside of the will of God for mankind and declared an abomination by God.

        • http://www.crazyrev.blogspot.com/ C.Brian Ross

          See my comment above! Agape v. eros! No contest.

    • Amos8

      I’m sorry, but that is straight from political talking points and a clear misdirection. Jesus is the Word. The Word does mention and condemn it, which you admitted.

      You also either misunderstand or have bought into false teachings…

      Condemnation of homosexuality (or other sins) is not the main concern … or “what Jesus is all about” Jesus was about paying the price for our sins so that we can avoid eternal damnation for our sins … AND because of this He opened His ministry by declaring “REPENT.” Repent of what? Sin! The consequences of sin is the hell and the Lake of Fire. Jesus, and those who speak the truth, speak of the only way to avoid that consequence … and yet many willfully reject Him and His gospel. Others wittingly or unwittingly pervert that gospel and do not teach accurately or about personal responsibility.

      I would not want to tell someone one or more falsehoods that hinders or prevents them from forgiveness and eternal life. Yet this applauded by many “liberals” and a growing number of “conservatives.”

      Jesus is love, AND He is the truth, and discover what happens to those who do not have a love for the truth: 1 Thess 2:8-12!!!

      • JesusIsLove

        Yes I agree, and all Christians know that Jesus died for our sin. I take all that Jesus said to the word, I do not however take everything from everywhere else to be the word of God. Humans, who are full of sin wrote the Bible, not God. Many of which were rightly inspired by God but others, like in the Bible verse I gave in my original comment clearly weren’t and were just using it to get their own way. The loving and merciful God I know would never encourage genocide. Just like the loving God I know wouldn’t ignore the loving relationship between two humans of the same gender.
        You say Jesus speaks of the ways to ‘avoid that consequence’ yet Jesus says nothing on homosexuality. You simple assume he accepts homosexuality as a sin.
        “Love one another” (something Jesus DID say) is one of the greatest commandments, homosexuals love one another, where is the sin in that?

        • Chance

          By what authority do you decide which parts of Scripture are the word of God and which parts are not? Just curious.

        • Amos8

          “The loving and
          merciful God I know would never encourage genocide.”

          As Chance asked below, by what authority do you get to pick and choose?

          Furthermore, by what standard are YOU deciding which parts fit with “the loving God I know”?

          If God is infinite, all-knowing, etc–and we are sinful, finite, with hearts deceitful above all things, etc–then how do you know that the God you know wouldn’t do that, or anything else that is hard for us to grasp?

          Can I, or you, or anyone else, now say about any part of Scripture … “the God I know would say or do that …”?

          Whether you realize it or not, you have taken the path where you are now the final authority on the matters of God.

          “Just like the loving
          God I know wouldn’t ignore the loving relationship between two humans
          of the same gender.”

          I believe I established the shifting, misleading, if not outright deceitful sand that you are building on in the first quote, and, therefore, here.

          To be clear, God is not ignoring these!

          And polygamist, or “throuples” (3 people of the same gender), or ______, or ______, can also say, with your logic and standard: “The loving God I know wouldn’t ignore the loving relationship between __________.”

          “You say Jesus speaks of the ways to ‘avoid that
          consequence’ yet Jesus says nothing on homosexuality. You simple assume
          he accepts homosexuality as a sin.”

          Clearly, in no way have I assumed anything. I am going on an written Standard that I did not write, feel, or make up–as are billions of other people. You are asserting that I came up with this on my own. Clearly it is found in God’s Word (many times), of which Jesus IS the Word (Rev 19:13; Jn 1:1, 14). Jesus, the Word, says many things about homosexuality as sin … AND the dire consequences of this sin. If you choose to reject that then no one can help you with that. If you can’t see that you are the one assuming and tailor-making your own standards then there is no hope going forward.

          Again, without a love for the truth … (1 Thess 2:8-12)

          “Love one another” (something
          Jesus DID say) is one of the greatest commandments, homosexuals love one
          another, where is the sin in that?

          How do you know He said that? If you reject any part of the Bible then all parts are now in doubt, if not rejected.

          If a man and woman love each other, that is great, but they can and do still sin against each other. Where is the love in their sin? Sin is sin. Sin is real and deadly. If two people TRULY loved each other then they would tell each other the truth–especially about sin, the consequences of sin, and the remedy of sin.

          That is love!

          Are you going to cling to all of your faulty premises that have been proven in error? If so, for what? To what end? I am convinced that on some level inside of you that you know you are wrong. Please repent while there is still time!

        • soldoutbeliver

          like Amos and chance have ask, Why do you believe in Jesus if it is as you think man wrote the bible and only doing to get their own way, why do you believe the stories of Jesus in the bible?

        • http://www.crazyrev.blogspot.com/ C.Brian Ross

          “Love one another” (something Jesus DID say) is one of the greatest
          commandments, homosexuals love one another, where is the sin in that?”

          The issue here requires a little knowledge of the Greek language. Greek, unlike the English language, has no less than four different words, each of which is translated as ‘love’ in English. Within the New Testament, the word that is used is ‘agape’ (a-ga-pay). This is the unconditional love of God that is a minimum of emotion and a maximum of evaluation. It has absolutely no sexual connotation at all! The ‘sexual’ word is eros (air-os). This is the word that refers to the sexual act, and to love in a sexual context.

          When Jesus said “Love one another”, He used agape. When homosexuals say that they “love one another”, and are living together in a physically active relationship, they are using the word in the sense of eros! There is NO Scriptural support for that lifestyle. Sorry about that – but don’t take it up with me; consult the Author!

    • Jon Penk

      One of the reasons Jesus never mentions “homosexuality” is because it wasn’t an issue in the regions he taught in. The closest he comes to is Matt. 19: 4-5 “And he answered and said ‘Have you not read the He created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said ‘for this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and the two shall become one flesh?”

      However, it’s condemned in the OT as Yahweh gives the law to Moses as well as in the New Testament as Paul includes it in many of his “vice lists”. To say that “homosexuality is okay” because Christ never said the word is simply picking and choosing what you want to believe what Scripture says.

    • dadta hensley

      John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. :2 The same was in the beginning with God. :3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. :4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. :5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

      I am not sure if you understand that any word of God is Jesus. Jesus is God, if you believe that the entire Bible is the word of God then you ought to know that no matter which portion of the Bible a word on any subject is from, it’s from Jesus. I hope you’ll grasp this. As long as homosexuality is considered sin and an abomination, in a part of the Bible, that’s Jesus speaking to you. Repent, turn from sodomy and it shall be well with you.

    • singuar

      Nor did he mention rape, incest, child rape, child abuse, child pornography, slavery, adult pornography, prostitution, drug dealing, meth manufacturing, armed robbery, defrauding investors, elder abuse, genocide, on and on we can go. The absence of Jesus directly mentioning homosexuality is pointless. Nevertheless it should be noted that He did define marriage as between a man and women and referred to the Judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah as a historical event.

      • Senor_ice

        Come on though, God gave us morality. You can use your common sense that those in that list are bad. Homosexuality causes no harm to anybody except you Christians. Full of hate.
        He defined marriage as that because that was what marriage was when he walked the earth. If he said it’s between gays as well, even his disciples would look at him and think he has no clue on modern culture.

        • lwmoon

          Yes, thank you, God gave us morality. And no place in the old or new testament gives any hint of anything besides sex between one man and one woman being moral–except in the earlier OT when there were multiple wives–and last time I checked, it also says God doesn’t change.

  • cantbeshaken

    I am a LGBT Christian. I love God and I know God loves me and I believe to my core that he wants me to have a happy full life, a life I could never have in a heterosexual relationship. I refuse to let anyone test and push that faith. Not all of my LGBT brothers and sisters can be so strong. I feel as though its hypocritical for my fellow Christians to spend chunks of time pushing people from God rather than bringing more people to him. I also don’t understand that if they are so worried about others salvation why not focus on greed or gluttony those are the real epidemics in this country.
    God Bless all. Let’s love and let God be the judge.

    • Amos8

      Those are powerful judgments of millions, if not billions of others.

      Are you really going to condemn them, and me, and then say “Let’s love and let God be the judge”?? Are you also going to avoid this reality, or deny it, or somehow minimize it or blame others?

      Your condemnation is the exact opposite of what is going on. You declare they are pushing people away. Their intent, which you judged so inaccurately, is to point people to the truth … all while knowing they will be judged and condemned and hated and called “Hater” and “Pharisee” and …. They take this on out of great love and grief. They want people to know the truth so that they can be saved. Yes, they are deeply concerned (not “worried”) about “others salvation”! What can possibly more important than that?

      Deception, sin, and the consequences of sin, and a lack of love for the truth are the real “epidemics in this country” and in the world. That is what Christians are called to address.

      BTW: We are not called to a “happy full life.” We are called to so much more. Being happy if fine, but love, joy, peace, freedom, etc doesn’t come from our circumstances or political correctness or sex or what people think of us. Think bigger and you will be blessed with the truth, and the truth does not always make us happy!

      • Tod Thompson

        I find that those who use that term “hater” the most are the ones who are most guilty of hating others who are in disagreement or opposition to them. It is the ultimate hypocrisy.

        • Amos8

          Amen, but the worst part is that they often refuse to acknowledge this fact, even though they know it is true! What hope is there when that happens. It certainly fits with the process of hardening the heart, and even with God “giving them over to …”

    • Jon Penk

      First, I don’t see anywhere in Scripture where God wants us to live a “happy” life.
      Second, you raise a good point, why doesn’t the church focus on others salvation? Why not focus on greed and gluttony? Regarding gluttony, you see TONS of Christian weight loss programs and how we’re supposed to treat the body as God’s temple…because it is.
      Since you mentioned it, how would it sound if the church promoted gluttony? Despite what Scripture says about it, how would it sound if the church taught it was “okay” and “nothing wrong with it”? We would think that would be crazy and idiotic. Such is the reason why homosexuality is such a hot button in today’s culture, especially in the Church.
      It’s one thing for the culture to accept it, but when the Church teaches it’s “okay”, we have an issue. It would be like someone to say “There is nothing wrong with getting drunk”. Really? Have you read scripture? Third, you say “let God be the judge” I agree. Thankfully, He’s already set the standard. He’s already said that homosexuality is a sin. Please note, I say “homosexuality is a sin” because that is the subject of this thread. Of course there are other sins that are just as destructive. I’m not singling it out.

    • Chance

      The only question is, “What does God say?” Rom 1 and 1 Cor 6 say that ppl who practice homosexuality WILL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Scripture is clear that the act of having sexual intercourse w a person of the same gender is a sin. Scripture is also clear that a Christian cannot continue in unrepentant sin (1 Jn 3:9). I think it’s helpful to point out the fact that God places sexual restrictions on EVERYONE. I was born w desires to have sex with women, but God says it would be a sin to act on those desires outside of a marriage to a woman. Even if you were born with SSA, God says it would be sinful to act on those desires outside a marriage to a member of the opposite sex. There are Christians who struggle with SSA, but who, by God’s grace, are going to war with their flesh and putting to death their sinful desires. My encouragement to you is to repent and fight the good fight of faith along w your other brothers and sisters who are also seeking to put to death their flesh, along w it’s desires, by the power of the Spirit (Rom 8:13). Peace and grace.

    • JesusSAYSlove

      I just want to say, Thank you for staying strong and allowing Lord to be in relationship with you. I agree that society is not giving the homosexual community a chance to know God’s love. And to the some of the other posts that I have read, not once have I seen that repentance gives us salvation and if that was so, we would all be in trouble because we ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD! We can’t help but to sin, we don’t even know when we sin half the time. We can try our hardest not to sin, but if your relationship with God is strong and you include him in your life and allow yourself to be available to his will, than you are in good shape my friend. You have a voice, and I pray that you are using it on the persecuted.

      • Amos8

        “I agree that society is not giving the homosexual community a chance to know God’s love.”

        The best chance that we all have to know God’s love is according to the truth, repenting of sin, and the forgiveness of sin.

        But the growing voice among the world and many self-described Christians is that these 3 absolutely crucial, life-giving factors are now considered “hate.”

        Those who speak dare speak the truth, call sin “sin,” seek accuracy in personal responsibility … and therefore bring hope and gospel of salvation are those who are “giving the homosexual community a chance to know God’s love” AND they are being vilified, personally attacked, judged and condemned (falsely) for” judging,” etc.

        If those who offer the answer to knowing God’s love are minimized, demonized, and removed, then what hope does the “homosexual community” have, especially when such powerful propaganda rules the day, and the minds of so many?

      • Chance

        “I have not seen that repentance gives us salvation…”
        Take a look at Acts 2:38, 17:30, Mk 1:4, Acts 26:20, Rom 2:4, 2 Cor 7:10, 2 Pt 3:9… just to name a few.

        • Joseph

          haha, your being sarcastic right?

          • Reginald

            Actually Joesph………….He was quoting the error of someone else and then giving scripture of correction.

          • Joseph

            Oh I see.. Yeah at first glance it looked like the opposite. lol.

      • singuar

        You say “Thank you for staying strong and ALLOWING LORD TO BE IN RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU” (emphasis mine). Wow. You don’t see what a perverse statement that is? Are we now showing grace to the pitiful God by allowing Him to have a relationship with us? Surely that is not what you meant. I pray so. Finally, I say again the real issue is weather the Bible has authority over the Church. It is there both sin and love are revealed. The common thread of all who reject the sin of homosexuality is they reject the scripture’s authority over the Church and the disciples of Jesus. I do not. Thus, no amount of discourse will bring agreement. Bible believing and non Bible believing folks will never agree on this issue.

    • dadta hensley

      Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
      Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
      Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
      Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

      You can not afford to put your eternity on the line. God does not change His principles because of any given person or group of persons, homosexuals are committing abomination, you don’t need a “prophet” to tell you that you must desist from sodomy, turn to God to be one of His. God is love, yes, He is also God of Justice and a HOLY GOD.

      2. You can’t say since there are people who are lying, I am justified to be Homosexual, it doesn’t work like that. Besides, Jesus never told anyone; “I love you too much continue in your sin”. It has always been and will always be ” GO and SIN no more” . Christianity is not by once proclamation it is a witness in a person by the Holy Spirit.
      Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

      • BettyAnn

        My thoughts exactly…..:)

  • Christopher

    8. Jesus would say, as He DID say to the women caught in adultery, [ John 8:1-11] “…Go, and sin no more!”
    Note also John 8:12 ~ “Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness,
    but have the light of life.”

    1 John 1:5-10 (NKJV) “This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light
    and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness,
    we lie and do not practice the truth.
    But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son

    cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.”

    All Christian believers, regardless of their besetting sins and struggles, are called to be ones who “shall not walk (continue walking) in darkness”. ALL sin – including sexual sins – are darkness, and we should NOT continue to “walk in them”, but repent and live in God’s light. This IS the teaching and preaching of the Lord in the Gospels and to us in our day, for the Word of the Lord endures forever.

    Yes, God loves everyone – but He also is Just, and so holds everyone accountable to the righteous standards of His Word of Truth.
    The loving thing to say to ANY “community of sinners” [ be it LGBT or WXYZ] is what Jesus has said, “Repent” ~ “Go, and sin no more”.
    We should say it kindly and in love and compassion – but it NEEDS to be said.

  • Nathan

    This misunderstanding and misrepresentation of God and God’s will is the biggest reason we cannot lead people to God. When we make God’s will into our will we pervert the love of God and no one will follow a god that has been reduced to human will.

    • Amos8

      What specific “misunderstanding and misrepresentation” do you speak of? And who, specifically, is doing this?

      I don’t if we can “lead people to God” but we can love the truth (2 Thess 2:8-12), love God, and love others according to the truth. A common and huge misunderstanding is that if we do these well, even perfectly (if that were possible), then more people will come to Jesus, go to church, etc. It is highly probable that this might push people away! (2 Cor 2:14-16; Acts 7; Matt 7:13-14)

      Should we deeply desire that more people accurately believe in, know, and love the real Jesus? Yet we don’t control that (I’m not saying you necessarily believe that we do), but ours is loving according to the truth, and this often means defending the attacks on the truth and God’s Word.

      So, to me, the biggest reasons people fail to accurate know and believe in Jesus and follow Him is because … 1. They don’t want to (2 Tim 4:1-4) and 2. Because they are not given the truth–rather they are given a “Burger King” “God” and “truth” (i.e. they can have it their way) that shifts with whatever might be deemed more acceptable and appealing to them.

  • Reginald

    What I am realizing in many of these posts is a rationale of the possibility of some merger of sorts of the LGBT community and Christianity, through an apparent mental re-creation of the Lord Jesus Christ as some ‘live and let live……love and let love…….freestyle hippie’ that has abandoned holiness for a love in any form campaign.

    I am here to tell you, by the authority of the Holy Spirit that this is heretical error and utter deception.

    How is this being systematically played out???? Let me share what the Holy Spirit is exposing in these series of posts.

    1. (posted by JesusIsLove) “I’m sorry but I do not see Jesus even mention homosexuality in the Bible”

    – The first part of the re-creation is isolating Jesus from the rest of the Bible; apart from the Old Testament law and apart from the New Testament epistles by Jesus’ own apostles. There is a growing mentality that if Jesus didn’t say it, it can’t be true and can therefore be ignored and avoided.

    Let’s look at what Jesus has to say about this…..

    John 8:54-58 ~ Jesus answered, ” If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him, ‘ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, ” Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    – We see here that while the Jews were wanting to highlight the distinction between the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob from this Jesus standing before them, He (Jesus) vehemently pointed out to the Jews that not only does He know the Father (that gave the Law and the Prophets), but Jesus also “keeps His word”.

    – In the midst of these attempts to separate Jesus from the Father and make Him into a new god that denies the Old Testament word of the Father, Jesus clearly says here “And if I say, ‘I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you”.

    – The whole identity of Jesus is in His Father and the whole identity of God the Father is in Jesus. He clearly identifies and irrevocably claims and holds this single identity in His Father here, “Jesus said to them, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    2. (posted by JesusIsLove) “all Christians know that Jesus died for our sin. I take all that Jesus said to the word, I do not however take everything from everywhere else to be the word of God. Humans, who are full of sin wrote the Bible, not God.”

    Now……as for the Old Testament word of God in the Law and the Prophets, let’s see what Jesus says about them.

    Matthew 5:17-18 ~ Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    – Jesus not only identifies with (and agrees with) the Father that gave the Law and the Prophets, but He identifies with and agrees with the word contained in Law and the Prophets as well.

    – He clearly tells us that until heaven and earth have passed away, NOTHING of the Law that defines sin shall pass away…….SINCE HEAVEN AND EARTH HAVE NOT YET PASSED AWAY, THE LAW THAT DEFINES SIN IS STILL VERY MUCH IN EFFECT.

    – Until sin has been eradicated from the creation of mankind and until death, Satan, the fallen angels and hell itself have all been judged by Jesus, THE LAW THAT DEFINES SIN IS STILL VERY MUCH IN EFFECT.

    – This means that if you reject the Law that defines sin and the Prophets that were called by God to call out those of the Old Testament that also rejected God and His Law to repentance of their sins and turn from sin to God for mercy and life, YOU ALSO REJECT GOD (FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT) AND YOU ARE NOT SAVED CHILDREN THAT WILL BE JUDGED ACCORDING TO GRACE, BUT UNREPENTANT CHILDREN JUDGED ACCORDING TO THE LAW.

    3. (posted by cantbeshaken) “I am a LGBT Christian. I love God and I know God loves me and I believe to my core that he wants me to have a happy full life, a life I could never have in a heterosexual relationship.”

    – Here we have a deceived person that claims to have a dual citizenship with Jesus Christ that died so we could be free from sin AND with a group that is proudly embracing their sin that Jesus died to free them from. This notion poses what appears to be a dilemma; as this person claims to love God as a member of a group that opposes God by pridefully embracing their sin.

    Why do I say this “appears” to be a dilemma? Because of what Jesus says here….

    Matthew 6:24 ~ No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other….”

    – According to Jesus, if one loves a group that opposes the word of His Father they cannot also love or be devoted to Him; yet this person says claims devotion to both. Is Jesus wrong? How can what they say be possible? Because of the recreation in their minds of Jesus as the ‘love by any means’ free spirit that would never stand for all those mean, restrictive and judgmental things in the Old Testament………That is how one can dare claim to be an “LGBT Christian”

    In conclusion, I want to address two quotes in these posts…..

    (posted by JesusIsLove) “I’m sorry but I do not see Jesus even mention homosexuality in the Bible, let alone condemn it.”

    You are correct…….Jesus did not mention homosexuality; because He did not come to just deal with ONLY homosexuality…….HE CAME TO DEAL WITH AND ATONE FOR ALL SIN; REGARDLESS OF THE FORM OR MANIFESTATION………HE DID HOWEVER MENTION SIN AND CALL FOR US TO LEAVE IT ALONE (WITH THE MEANS OF HOW TO DO SO) SEVERAL TIMES.

    John 5:14-15 ~ Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, ” See, you have been made well. SIN NO MORE, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
    The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

    John 8:11-12 ~ She said, “No one, Lord.”
    And Jesus said to her, ” Neither do I condemn you; go and SIN NO MORE.”
    Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, ” I am the light of the world. HE WHO FOLLOWS ME SHALL NOT WALK IN DARKNESS, but have the light of life.”

    John 8:34 ~ Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.

    – So you see…..the call of Jesus was for people to leave all sin; not just one particular brand or flavor.

    (posted by JesusSAYSlove) “I agree that society is not giving the homosexual community a chance to know God’s love.”

    It is partly true……There are many in Christianity (some legitimate Christians and some legalistic Christians) that do give those that have indulged in the sin of homosexuality a hand of mercy that God can use to draw them to Christ. I myself have been accused of this many times myself; however God is working on me and I surrendered to His work in me.

    That being said, no one in Christianity can keep anyone from knowing God’s love. If Jesus is willing to die for the sake of the Father’s love, no one can keep that love away from anyone. The behavior of some Christians can never be an excuse to keep you from Him. The Holy Spirit brings this passage to me regarding this.

    John 4:9-10 ~ Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans. Jesus answered and said to her, ” If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘ Give Me a drink, ‘ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

    and again…..

    John 4:20 ~ Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

    This Samaritan woman lived in a society and a time that was excluded from worshiping God in His temple or even associating with the chosen people of God………However God (Jesus) came to her and asked of her.

    John 4:21 ~ Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.

    John 4:23 ~ But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    THE HOUR HAS ALREADY COME……YOU MAY WORSHIP THE FATHER, BUT IT MUST BE IN TRUTH…….STARTING WITH ACKNOWLEDGING OF YOUR SIN BEFORE HIM AND HOW IT HAS SEPARATED YOU FROM HIM (NOT MADE YOU CLOSER)……..REPENT OF YOUR SIN AND SURRENDER YOUR LIFE TO JESUS CHRIST TO BE YOUR ONE AND ONLY LORD AND SAVIOR………

    LORD – FREELY GIVEN EXCLUSIVE CONTROL OVER YOUR LIFE AND WILL FOR HIS WILL

    SAVIOR – SAVING YOU FROM THE PAYMENT OF DEATH FOR YOUR SINS AND SAVING YOU FROM THE HOLD OF YOUR SINS.

    COME TO JESUS NOW AND BE TRULY SAVED! IN JESUS NAME, AMEN!

    • Amos8

      And let’s also point out the pattern of the hit-and-run commenters. Those you mention and quote, and many others like them, write comments that are filled with errors–and they really believe those errors–and then many people come along and point out those errors and point to the truth. Yet the original commenter can’t or won’t respond. If they were truly interested in the truth, and had a passion to be accurate and a love for the truth, then more of them would respond more often. Yet the pattern remains: through out a bunch of feel-good, utopian, erroneous notions of “love,” etc and subtly or overtly attack the Bible, and then leave and not deal with the mess the made.

      • Reginald

        Agreed……..And the weird part is that even though they all try to combine LGBT and Christianity under this mystical banner of love by any means, even God’s definition of love witnesses against their notion and behavior.

        1 Corinthians 13:4-6 ~ Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth

        They are unwilling to suffer giving up the desires and pleasures of their flesh….

        They exhibit envy because they are jealous and spiteful because deep down they know they cannot stay as they are and reap the benefits of salvation.

        Obviously the creation of an official sin organization called “LGBT’ just screams “look at me” as I parade myself around and be puffed up pride.

        They seek their own inclusion into the people of God and heaven without having to die to self.

        They think evil continually……..to the point that they believe that their evil is blessed and is their gift from God they were born with.

        Obviously they rejoice in their iniquity and viciously scorns anyone that tells them the truth; branding them as haters.

        By God’s own definition, they do not exhibit godly love…………

  • Nurisha

    In your #2 point, please list the version/translation in which you are quoting John 6:37. I have searched 6 versions and none of then read the translation you have provided. I wanted to use your version of that passage to help the LGBT community to not feel condemnation for coming to Christ. However. The KJV, NKJV, NIV, NLT, NIRV, and Message versions all speak to “everyone [whom] the Father has chosen to send (or come) to me will not be rejected.” The 6 versions I have described speak to predestination (in my opinion), and leaves a valid argument against the LGBT community, thus not making it a good witnessing tool for the LGBT’s at large. Please help with providing your translation/version of all scripture, but for now John 6:37.

    • Tritesearia Cammy

      T he Word of God speaks true . CHRIST died once and for all, but where he is you can not come if you have unrepented SIN. If you are not a blood washed believer having Christ own blood cover you God can’t even look at you because of you’re sin.

      That is why the LGBT needs to understand you cannot be a homosexual living participating as one.
      because you have not put Off the old creation and put on the new creation walking in the light that only Jesus can provide.

      not only is homosexuality a sin but God called it an abomination.
      meaning he did not create you for that purpose.
      nowhere in the Bible will you find that is acceptable to God The Creator that man lay with man, and woman lay with woman therefore this Act is against God and His purposes for you in creating you.

      In fact he speaks 2 times to come when this very evil will exist .

      God the Creator intended man to lay with Woman. This Union and only this union is called Marriage the fruit of this union produces Children. The Family!
      Homosexuality corrupts the minds of children
      telling them that having A daddy A and A daddy B is acceptable when in fact it is an abomination!

    • Tritesearia Cammy

      imply ask the LGBT where in the Bible do they find their purpose in creation.
      don’t take The defensive.
      The Word of God is self explanatory.
      Most homosexuals know the truth. Their conscience is seared so they want Christians to prove to them what they already know is true.

      • Amos8

        I love your question, however, my speculation as to their answer would be something along the lines of, “I just know that God wants me, and everyone, to be happy and to find someone to love.”

        While you and I and many others see the errors here, your question and their answer does reveal the distortion and errors of their goals when matched up to God’s supreme goals for us and in creation.

  • http://JulianJArnold.co.uk Julian

    I realise there is a chasm of cultural despondency regarding this issue, but it’ a shame that we have allowed ourselves to focus so much on this particular issue. I don’t ever want to be the church that is defined by what we stand against, but the good that we are known for.

    • Amos8

      It would have been really nice for you to address the previous comments/rebuttals of your faulty assertions and accusation, but …

      Did you ask for them to be deleted? If so, why? And did you ask that the comments of others be deleted? If so, why?

      As to your (faulty) assertions above:

      1. They are both regular, and false, talking points of the left and anti-conservatives (I don’t know if you are in the camp, I’m just pointing out where they come from and that usually little to no thought/reason go into repeating them).

      2. It is very inaccurate to say that we are focusing “so much on this particular issue.” It is not a “shame” that we are focusing on it, it might be a shame that we are forced (not “allowing ourselves”) to focus on this because it is one of the main topics of the times and, at times, it is being shoved in our faces, it is changing society and churches, it DOES threaten traditional marriage (and is doing a great deal of damage through the open pandora’s box) … and a whole lot of other things. Yet your (faulty) assertions fit in with the pattern you showed us before: you blame those who are doing what is right (at a minimum, they are defending the assault on God’s Word and the Church) while not “focusing” on or blaming those responsible for this. [There is no lobby and LGBT type powerful political entities for "greed" or "lust" or "stealing" that are trying to change the Bible, shut down Christian businesses, get Christians kicked off of TV shows, infiltrate elementary schools, etc. Yet if we respond to this assaults then we are blamed for "focusing too much"?]

      3. Your last (faulty) assertion, while it does convince some, because it is inaccurate and even accusatory, it can do a great deal of harm. What you are implying (as this oft repeated, non-thinking phrase) is that “we” Christians are just against a bunch of stuff, and not known for what we are “for”! This is like saying Doctors are known to be against things, not for things … because they are against illnesses, diseases, sicknesses, injuries, pain, cancer, etc. Why doesn’t anyone accuse them of being more against than “for”? Because everyone knows they are for health and life–they are for their “patients.” Yet if Christians address that which poses great threats and harm to Believers and non-believers then they are discounted, judged, and condemned FALSELY for being known more for what they are against? Why did you, and so many others, not see clearly that they (“us”) are clearly FOR people, truth, God, the Bible and especially for those struggling with homosexuality and in handling false teachings and who lack in discernment.

      Why so much focus on those standing for the truth and, yes, contending for the faith and keeping people from falling for deceits which will cause untold destruction? Why redirect the focus and blame?

      • http://JulianJArnold.co.uk Julian

        I haven’t asked for any comments to be deleted… Why would I? My opinions are not faulty. A strange thing to call someone’s opinion faulty just because it doesn’t align with you view, my only guess (and a strongly founded one at that) is your aiming to antogonise and discount my opinion by calling it faulty simply because it doesn’t align win you thinking (maybe take a less arrogant approach and you might hear what somebody has to say in a relevant manner?). My opinion is my opinion, it’s not faulty… Just different.

        It is a shame, especially when people like you begin to use ‘us’ and ‘them’ language. It only threatens your view of marriage that has been taught through tradition. At least this forces the church to define marriage. Nobody speaks much of straight people destroying the sanctity of marriage; we’re far more tolerant of that.

        I haven’t implied most of what you have said, you have read meaning (and judging by the length of you provocative response, a lot of unintended meaning) into my different (not faulty) opinion.

        As for focus and blame, who gave you a platform of righteousness to make judgements that don’t belong to you?

        • Amos8

          Thank you replying, I was just curious why your comments, and then mine, and then perhaps others, were deleted. I believe it is somewhat unusual for comments to be deleted, and whatever I recall of your comments were no where near worthy of being deleted, nor, I believe, were mine or that of others. So, I remain perplexed as to why “Church Leaders” deleted the comments that they did. As to your question “Why would I?” I have seen people in the past ask for their comments to be deleted, so I was just checking with you because this does not make any sense.

          Yes, opinions are faulty, I am not sure why that is even a question. If I say, “My opinion is that gravity doesn’t effect me. I can fly. And falling off this roof won’t hurt me.” And you say try to warn me, “No, that opinion/assertion is not true. It is true that you will fall, you can’t fly, you will give hurt.” But then I come back with, “No, that is just your opinion.” Then there is no hope left for me in that situation.

          Facts are not faulty, objective truth is not faulty, I attempted to point out the “faults” of your assertions or “opinions.” To merely call this a difference of opinions is also very misleading. You claimed many things (here and elsewhere). I called them “faulty” [BTW: by definition, you have are all calling what I wrote faulty] and showed you why. You have not addressed these because you know you cannot. Also, you have merely repeated what you have heard, whether you thought it through or not, but I think that if a person did then they would see the error of the “fine-sounding arguments” that you repeated (Col 2:4)

          Whatever you want to call them (e.g. “opinions”), your agenda (and that of others) here is antithetical to mine and others. That, too, I pointed out. The problems are clear, yet, I believe you are willingly refusing to agree with what is plainly put here.

          Another thing that is clear, and these all objectively happened (in writing)–and feel free to show me which one is not accurate–but you have claimed to be the “tolerant” one, the non-judgmental one … and that judging is wrong, and the I and others are “Pharisees” (your word and you judgment), you challenged our “TONE” (i.e. you judged it to be wrong and harmful), and have made “accusations” (your word and you judgment), you made we/us and them statements but then condemned those of “us” who might use them, (I could go on) …

          All of this and you still refuse to examine your own writings/actions, or at least you are refusing to own up. Instead, as predicted, you are blaming others. This is one of the major reasons people, if they are misled, in error, or deceived, don’t come out of that. The redirect thing might work when it comes to opinions, but not in matters of love and truth.

          I wrote all these things, mainly for others not to be mislead, but also largely for you. If you reject what is right in front of you, which I am pretty sure you know to be at least fairly accurate, then so be it.

          • http://JulianJArnold.co.uk Julian

            Amos, you make more assumptions about where I may or may not stand than one can possibly count. I simply believe that ‘us’ and ‘them’ positions are not the only way to approach what is clearly a sensitive issue for many. The Homosexual individual is not a new and modern concept… It is ancient. Paul (and to a more indirectly extent, Jesus) do deal with the issue, but at no point is it given the mass of attention that we give it. Paul names sins on a few occasions, but the emphasis of his writings can be (very broadly) summed up with ‘Jesus made a way to God for you… So live differently, model godliness’. This is the core of Galatians and Ephesians. Only sparingly is homosexuality mentioned and it’s in conjunction with a plethora of other sins. Paul never offers up suggestions of condemnation but urges us to model the kingdom of God, not seek to change other peoples behaviour.

            Nothing I have said is faulty. A difference in perspective is not the same as blatant untruth. It is simply true and factual that there is a chasm of despondency, it is true that this is more central to church debate than it should be. These are not faulty statements and certainly not worthy of a small essay focussing on reading around what I haven’t said. This isn’t about allowing people to be mislead, this is about modelling something different. For as long as we remain with the stance of ‘us’ and ‘them’, we will expel people from the gospel. The opportunity we have as Christians is to model something different, not make loud aggressive statements about people who don’t yet know Jesus and how unbiblical they are. They don’t live by the measure of Godliness that we do. We are not yelling about how people shouldn’t steal, or eat too much, or kill; yet are immediate response to the LGBT issue is “oh you gay, well let me tell you why that’s evil”… Come on, is that what Jesus does with the woman at the well, is that his first response to the woman caught in adultery? To tell her what God is against, or to first extend grace and then see the response of a heart changing?

          • Amos8

            I’ll give you credit for at least replying!

            “Nothing I have said is faulty.”

            I could not agree more, not only that, they were documented, in your own words, yet you consistently avoid that.

            My bigger concern and points are far more about you and how you have handled this than about homosexuality. I showed you multiple times (as has at least one other person) and yet you have done two things with these: avoid and redirect focus and blame. A perfect example:

            “We are not yelling about how people shouldn’t steal, or eat too much, or
            kill; yet are (sic) immediate response to the LGBT issue is “‘oh you gay, well
            let me tell you why that’s evil'”

            Who is this “we” and “our” you are talking about. You may have good intentions with this, but you are lumping me and others (and perhaps yourself) in with this. This “opinion” or “assertion” is beyond a red herring. I am sure someone, somewhere has said something like that, but that is a straw man that many deceptively use, and have used so well that many believe that is the overall deceitful caricature of Christians. It is actually doing precisely what you say you are against. That statement, ma’am, is horrifically “faulty” and harmful to everyone, no matter what a person believes. It is horrific on many different levels.

            That is why accuracy is so important and why utopian notions of “love” and “acceptance” are not only unrealistic and faulty, they do real damage to real people.

            Another perfect example: you brought up this notion–and repeatedly condemned it–of how I, apparently (and perhaps others), are talking in we/us and they/them. Yet you can’t or won’t see how you are doing this very same thing and yet don’t have a problem with it. AND when it is pointed out you not only avoid and redirect and not own up, you CONTINUE to do this very thing. You used “They” and “we” several times in the last 5 to 10 sentences … all while condemning this behavior (in others, that is) and yet WILL not own up to this in your own behavior!!

            This is all for you and your benefit, and anyone else you might come in to contact with. If you don’t, or won’t, see what you have done, the patterns and truths revealed in your words, then so be it.

            God Bless You in the truth and His grace.

          • soldoutbeliver

            Amos I do not think this is the same person if it is they are they changed profile names the person that posted the other day was named Juliana not Juilan.

          • Amos8

            Thank you!

          • http://JulianJArnold.co.uk Julian

            A little embarrassing for you to confuse my points with another, it would not have been a problem except your replies are too argumentative to ignore the faux par. The drop down of discussion is quite evident.

            Not sure what you mean by ‘having showed me multiple times’, you don’t really reference anything. I’m handling the issue fine thanks. As for ‘another persons comment’, I can only see your comments in the declension of posts and ‘Soldoutbelievers’ showing you your mistake.

            This is the first time you have mentioned me using ‘we’ terms, so I’m not sure I have been ‘avoiding’ anything. The ‘we’ and ‘us’ is not the same as my point regarding ‘us’ and them’. It’s literarily evident that the ‘we’ and ‘us’ I have been using refer to those discussing the article… Not sure I had to qualify pronouns in obvious context.

            I’m just as worried for you in that you would rather focus on the minor ways of communicating a point, yet miss the whole ethos of what I’ve said. For as long as you remain sure of trying to find an argument and pick at semantics in arguing with the person rather than wrestling with the subject, we will get nowhere quickly.

            It really doesn’t feel like this conversation is making any headway anymore, especially since you’ve been arguing at me with another person in mind.

          • soldoutbeliver

            You want a discussion on this yet you spend a whole post bashing on mistaken identity? Homesexuality is I sin the bible is clear on this.

          • http://JulianJArnold.co.uk Julian

            The so called ‘bashing’ was a response to points raised by Amos. Conversation works through replies.

            At no point have I said it’s not a sin. If you take some time to read my earlier post, you will see that. But thanks for your profound comments.

          • Amos8

            Again, I am sorry, and my hope is for accuracy. And, hopefully, I accurately owned up to what I did wrong. I would ask of you to do the same. If you can’t or won’t see these things then I’ll leave it at that.

            While I did conflate you with someone else, apparently, much of what I wrote does apply to you (and, as I said, what you and she said are very much the same) and is accurate. I let you draw out the truth of these statements to what ever degree you would like. I did show the problems with what you alone asserted above. I believe if a person is truly passionate about truth, if the have a “love for the truth,” then they will seek it out no matter what. So if that is you then great.

          • Amos8

            Julian, I am terribly sorry. I believe that I might have confused you for someone else with a nearly identical name. (I guess it is possible that you are the same person with a small change, but I doubt it). So, as a result, what I wrote must have been some what confusing to since I confused the names. Please forgive me.

            I would say, however, there is a lot of similarities between what you and “JulianA” wrote and believe. So, I don’t know how much this is possible, but please disregard anything that doesn’t apply to what you wrote above. Having said that, much of what I wrote and my concerns are pertinent … yet I blundered in confusing the names. Again, I am sorry.

  • Cassie

    I actually quite enjoyed this article. It is true, we must love everybody, but we don’t have to accept their sin. Jesus loves everyone, but that does not mean He loves their sinful lifestyle. He can change anyone who is willing to let Him. When we come to Him we must surrender our lives to Him and die to our old selves, whatever that may be. He is an amazing God that will transform us in ways we can never even imagine if we let Him! He shed His blood to pay for us, but not only that, He wants a real and true relationship with us! If we keep our eyes on Him and eternity, what little a sacrifice is it to turn away from our pasts and live a life that is accepting to Him that is laid out in the Bible. Blessings.

  • Amos8

    If _____ is a sin (e.g. greed, lying, fornication, homosexuality), and we all pretty much agree that the consequences of sin are harmful, if not horrific, then isn’t is perfectly loving to warn others (Believer or not) what you believe that GOD said–through His written Word–that ____ is a sin and harmful?

    Why are so many self-proclaiming Christians attacking, mocking, calling “Haters,” etc those that seek to do this perfectly loving thing? Even though it is never done perfectly, how do so many self-described “Christ-Followers” or Christians rationalize so much energy against what is so loving and hard to do?

  • Pastor Ed

    Wow! What denomination are you dude?

  • Reginald

    “Love God, love thy neighbor, love self”

    Six word Bible for you I guess……

    How does one truly love God and give their lives to disobey God?

    If God is love and one cannot love God by giving their lives to disobeying God, how can they truly love their neighbor?

    If one gives their lives to disobey their Creator; proving they do not love their Creator, how can they truly love themselves?

  • Chance

    So, telling ppl the truth is NOT loving, and keeping quiet about sinful behavior that Scripture says will send them to hell IS loving? Gotcha… I thought it was the other way around.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your view of Scripture and how do you interpret Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6?

  • http://thewaytheballbounces.blogspot.com BallBounces

    “No one can determine who disobey’s God but God.” Why are you condemning others, then?

  • David

    We are merely agreeing with what God has already judged. He did judge, just as you asked. Now we must merely bow to His judgment. Read your Bible. It’s in there (as the article clearly articulated). If a judge calls a man a murderer and places a sentence on him, who are we to call the man just and set him free?

  • Reginald

    Amen David! Awesome analogy!

  • Reginald

    Exactly! Good observation!

    It’s almost impossible to dig to the bottom of apathy without finding hypocrisy on the way down.

  • Reginald

    Since you wanted to bring Jesus and Paul into the discussion, let’s actually look at what they said shall we….

    [Jesus]
    Matthew 23:27 ~ “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.

    [The Apostle Paul]
    Acts 23:3 ~ Then Paul said to him, “God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Do you sit to try me according to the Law, and in violation of the Law order me to be struck?”

    Tell me now oh my Sister……….What does this scripture mean?

    1 Timothy 5:20 ~ Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

  • Reginald

    Sarcasm calling out “accusation”:

    (Really? Or is this just what you have decided goes on?

    “They think evil continually” (Really? How do you know the thoughts of anyone else?)

    No….Actually I have family members that are both lesbian and gay. I know what happens and what is chosen for the sake of pleasure and desire.

    But hey, we don’t have to take my word for it……We can go what by God says, shall we?

    Genesis 6:5-6 ~ Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

    “It is clear that the LGBT community is given over to the desires and pleasures of the flesh;” (Is it really? On what evidence?)

    As I mentioned before, I have family members that ar both lesbian and gay…..What evidence do you need? I have family members that I love dearly that need to get saved?

    “It’s almost impossible to dig to the bottom of apathy without finding hypocrisy on the way down.” (Some people feel the same about Christians. Are they right too?)

    Actually they are right…..about the hypocrisy part, but REAL Christians that truly understand the sacrifice of Jesus will (or shouldn’t be) apathetic to sin………but I’m finding that maybe some are.

    Accusation calling out “accusation”:

    (If you demonstrate something that looks like hate, what are they supposed to understand from that?)

    If they don’t know the difference between rebuke and hate, is that my fault or responsibility?

    Accusation calling out “combative language”:

    Take a general look at the “Them” and “us” language used in almost every comment. It’s setting up a fight that could be avoided with a little mutual care.)

    If an unsaved person doesn’t love me or like me and yet gets saved because of my speaking the truth of God’s word and it steps on their toes and realize this is not a joke……..FINE…….We’ll make peace in heaven. In my early years of being silent, I have lost too many family members that were not saved.

    I love you in the Lord my sister, I really do………but people are dying every moment of every day that are not saved…….EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY I SAID!

    None of Jesus’ Apostles died of natural causes for a reason……..because they dared to aggravate people for the sake of Jesus and people coming to Christ.

  • Juliana

    Gentlemen, the tone of this conversation has gone, inevitably, the way it always does. There is little or no point in asking people to behave in the way the Bible suggests we ought to since it is so much more important for each of us to be right than to behave well.

    Goodnight and goodbye.

  • Amos8

    That is, sadly, what I thought. With grace and the gospel freely available, sin is no longer the biggest problem. The biggest problem now, and it is growing day by day, is the refusal to accurately take responsibility. That is what makes things hopeless.

  • Amos8

    Can anyone at Church Leaders explain why at least one of my comments above was deleted?

    What, specifically, warranted the deletion of my comment? I don’t remember exactly what I wrote, but I am pretty sure that nothing came close.

    And why were the other comments deleted?

    And why was at least one more of my comments deleted a few days ago in response to … I believe his same was “pastor DAT”? There was, and is, no reason that I can think of [if I have written anything worthy of being deleted, it was not in those comments].

  • Algoria

    Edit: I think your comments were deleted because they were part of a conversation with someone else who for one reason or another had all their comments on this article deleted.

  • Algoria

    I see nothing worthy of deletion in your comment. It isn’t offensive, uncivil or off-topic, in my opinion. Neither was mine as far as I can recall. Both were a response to being told, “Shame on you pharisees (sic)”

    Sometimes they seem to delete a comment if the person you are disputing with has flagged it as “inappropriate.”

    In the end it’s not worth caring what they delete and don’t delete. In a few days almost no one will be reading the article or comments anyway.

  • Amos8

    Wow, they deleted even more since I wrote my question above!

    This is out of control.

    Thanks for writing that Algoria, but what they deleted above was pretty innocuous. I remember repeatedly “flagging” and writing Church Leaders to remove someone’s F-word in the comments. Not only that, the put the word Mother before it, making egregiously offensive to many … yet they refused. It is still there today.

    What criterion do they use? If it was because “Juliana” complained or flagged it then that is exceedingly weak. and they also deleter hers.

    Maybe Church Leaders is not worth it.

  • Algoria

    On looking the comments over again, all of PastorDAT’s and all but two of Juliana’s comments were deleted. Most of the replies to those two individuals were also deleted and yours were among those. It seems the deletions didn’t begin with your comments. The idea that the comments were flagged was just a guess on my part and probably not correct. I hope this helps.

  • Amos8

    It does, thanks, but it still leaves a mystery … and an unknown standard by which we are supposed to be following … or else we get our comments deleted! Yikes!

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