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  • amos8

    Wasn’t this recorded at the Dem’s national convention last year?

    [[I’ll spare you any “Propaganda” jokes]]

    BTW: I did not hear the word “justice” (but that is neither here nor there), nor did I hear the gospel (those words are in the title of this video). I did hear some version of the social gospel … and I heard a lot of subtle hate and attempts to guilt people.

    • Donald G.

      Why did you feel it necessary to bring politics into this discussion???

      If you want to debate the political side and who might or might not be more “Christian” I would love to do it privately and from a Biblical perspective. But this is not about that.

      We should be asking ourselves “if Christ were here what would He be doing? How would He respond? Where would He be going to reach people?”

      How can we share the Gospel if we do not get social????

      I have been in many churches that are predominantly non-white and some of the attitude this man in the video expressed is often expressed in them, and having been raised in the South, I can say it is often with good reason, but that is no excuse either for racism on either side.

      As for the guilt issue, I hope those of us who are believers would feel guilty for what we are not doing. We should!!! As we are told in James 4:17, if we know the right thing to do and we do not do it we are sinning. We should feel guilty.

  • Mark

    He spends most of his time talking about the problems and offers nearly no solutions. I agree with amos8. There seemed to be a lot of ‘subtle hate and attempts to guilt people.’ There was neither gospel or justice in this video.

  • Disapointed

    Too much “you don’t get it, but I do!!!”

  • Cliff Richardson

    I think I get it and I think he’s right.

  • Brad Bailey

    Guilt or no guilt, the message was true. Not Democrat or Republican truth, but good Samaritan truth. It was a cry from within the city by someone who can keenly observe the disconnect between the gospel and the way our culture lives. He’s calling us to remember Him who came and died for all mankind…not just the gentry.

    • Donald G.

      I like what you said. There is often a disconnect between the Biblical gospel and cultural thinking. I think some people confuse “class warfare” and “cultural” issues. The Bible says in many different places in the New Testament that from God’s viewpoint there are only two basic groups of people…. those who have been redeemed by the Cross and those who have not. I am reminded often when reading in the New Testament (and the Bible as a whole) that Jesus Christ and his disciples went out into every group of people. We are told of Christ saying to the rich man to give up all he had and give to the poor, so we know he was in contact with him in his community. We also see many examples of healing the sick and disabled so we know He was in their neighborhoods. We know he was where he made contact with prostitutes and other openly sinful people as well as those religious Pharisees. He was in fishing villages. My point is that He was among the people and His message was always the same… “I am the bread of life”, “I am the living water”, but basically “I am am the Way, the Truth and the Life…. the only way to eternal life”. We are told to let our light shine…. how can we do that unless we are in the neighborhoods? I love the last part of Matthew 25 when Christ is making a point that when we help or feed or clothe or visit or care for those in need, we are doing it for Him the same as if we were doing it to Him. ,

  • Colin Green – Imagining Church

    if you didn’t get it, you don’t get it. watch it again. this time listen to the message that is there instead of making not of what isn’t. Guilt? Hate? I felt none. A call to ownership from one sinner to churches full of sinners in a world of sinners, that I did hear. I am a pastor and I am trying to learn what it means to move in. No us, no them, just the great need for Christ. God – show me – show us.

    • amos8

      In more appealing falsehoods there is almost always some aspect of “truth” or “good” (“…when Eve saw there fruit was GOOD for food, pleasing to the eye, and desirable for attaining wisdom she ate…”). So let’s try to separate the truth from falsehoods in order to have an accurate understanding.

      “No us, no them …”

      Much of the confusion and problem come from this one assertion.

      He condemns making a distinction between “groups” yet Jesus repeatedly made clear distinctions between groups–especially when it came to the world/the culture! Who was the “lost” (one group of people) that He told another distinct group of people to “seek”?

      Loving and giving truth/gospel to “the culture” or “the world” is GREAT! Going into the world/culture to “seek” and love is wonderful. But blurring “the culture” with “the church” is hyper-deceitful and destructive. It may sound good (to some), and it is definitely trendy in the more “emgerging” churches and those who think they must do this to gain “street cred,” but it is goes against Jesus and all of Scripture.

      While there are many “sub” cultures, there is essentially one “culture” (his term used in the video). “The culture” is never compatible with God, God’s Word, God’s ways, etc (Matt 7:13-14; Col 2:8, 20-23; Gal 4:3, 9; 1 Jn 2:15-17; 2 Cor 6:14-7:1). “The culture” = “The world.”

      “If the WORLD hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the WORLD, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.”

      “I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.”

      Who hates Jesus–especially in the context of these verses? Is it “us” or “them”?

      Who hates the light and loves darkness, “us” or “them”?

      Who are the false teachers and wolves in sheep’s clothing, “us” or “them”?

      Who are we to “seek” and give the gospel, “us” or “them”?

      Of course we are not “against” the world, but many are against “us.”

      So this assertion of there is no them–while it is cool, trendy, and PC–is not only silly, it is not only antithetical to Jesus/The Word, it is very destructive, even to what those who buy into it are trying to do (e.g. “being missional).

      The worship of the culture must stop. The elevation of the culture must stop. The accurate understanding and biblical love for the culture should be our goal so that “they” can come to know Jesus.

      I do “get it” that many hipster/liberal/emergent/postmodern/cater-to-the-culture-to-win-the-culture people believe there is little to no need for “salvation” because we are all reconciled to God (in their way of thinking) so the “traditional” gospel is anathema to them, as well as those who try to “spread the gospel” to “them.”

      • Donald G.

        Excuse me but where do you get that “the culture” = “the world”??? There are many cultures that are not “worldly”. I have lived in areas where the Mennonite culture was predominant or the Amish culture. I have lived in areas where the Christian culture was predominant. The word culture can mean many different things… I would list many of them I found in my dictionaries and online, but culture does not always mean worldly. I have also lived where there was black culture and white cultures. When I first moved to the South, the white culture posted signs everywhere that said “Whites Only” and even in hospitals and doctors offices there were white only waiting rooms and “colored” only waiting rooms. When it comes to “worldly”, from what I read in the Bible, worldly is a state of mind and sometimes a lifestyle resulting from that.

    • Ray Corado

      Agreed Colin, if you don’t get it… you simply won’t get it. My Father is a 1st Gen Hispanic Planter/Pastor who transplanted us from Guatemala to the TX Panhandle in the early 80’s. I have seen racism, placism, culture persuasion and the like all of my life.

      One cannot truly understand unless you have been there and experienced it…

      AND to mention the Dem national convention from hearing this… confirms you DEF don’t get it!

      Luke 6:42 NKJV
      Or how can you say to your brother,
      ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you
      yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First
      remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to
      remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

      • amos8

        I’m glad you mentioned the log-eye-syndrome. May I suggest that perhaps you did not look at the log in your eye “first” but, instead, overtly blamed for a colossal error/log in your eye?

        As I wrote above, you (and the gentleman above) both defeated your own assertions (and the main problem/concern addressed in this video) by dividing “us” into “them” and “us,” and doing so all while claiming there is no “us” and “them”!!

        When someone points out this overt self-defeating logic–not to mention the abundantly explained violations of Jesus and God’s Word (in another comment)–and then your solution is to not only blame “them” for not being with “us” BUT you not-so-subtly blame THEM for being “hypocrites”? All in the context of supreme hypocritical and self-defeating condemnation and logic!! AND you put “them” into the “hypocrite” category while claiming to be in the “in” category!

        I could go on, but I’ll spare you and everyone else … unless you really are concerned about planks, logs, error, truth, and hypocrisy and “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matt 3:8).

        [Note: most people simply avoid this glaring problem and refuse to own up and change; others go on and continue the attack, etc; it is rare, but it has happened, where someone will own up, confess, and change.]

      • amos8

        BTW: I would love it if you showed me, with Scripture, how “Propaganda” is right and Jesus is wrong (i.e. with the verses and explanation that I gave below).

        • Ray Corado

          You are the model of Christ like humility aren’t you? Look at your first post mr logic argument defender of virtues…you took one look at the brotha with dreds named Propaganda and immediately spill up political conjecture. You immediately invalidated anything of worth you could say with a comment like that.
          Well done, I applaud you…keep showing us how right you believe you are and continue to prove the point you still don’t get it. I’m not ashamed to login with my real name, picture, as opposed to using a guest ID….
          Go on sir, more verses please. :)

          • amos8

            There were many ways you could have responded, but you chose this?

            “You are the model of Christ like humility aren’t you? Look at your first post mr logic argument defender of virtues…you took one look at the brotha with dreds named Propaganda and immediately spill up political conjecture.”

            Since you called me “mr logic” I will try to continue this theme. I hope you see how you are judging and condemning for judging …

            Not only that, your judgment could not be more inaccurate. Be that as it may, just how concerned are you that your judgment(s) are so errant? Just how concerned are you that you consistently defeat your own arguments? Just how concerned are you that you attacked a fellow human being for … (supposedly) attacking another human being … and did so far off the mark?

            Again, back to the original point/self-defeating behavior (that you continue to avoid … and instead attack others), you/others continue to insist there is no us/them yet continue to judge, and separate and divide with great prejudice, I might add … and yet you refuse to acknowledge this, and only insult and throw out personal attacks. I do get that.

            So, your “ad hominem” approach has successfully distracted us from the bigger concerns (temporarily), but if you want to address them then great, if you want to rely attacking people and on avoidance of the challenges at hand, then you will continue to reap what you sow.

            If you find yourself not able (or unwilling) to answer challenges than I would hope you would learn from that alone.

            [Did I get that right, are you really mocking using Bible verses?]

          • Ray Corado

            Please forgive the condescending tone. Not my M.O. and regret personifying the “us – them” mentality

          • amos8

            I appreciate the response to this one aspect, but there is a ton more here to address, and perhaps learn from.

            Also, it is ironic in that was one of the bigger concerns here, the “us – them” mentality … that was addressed as an absurdity, but then defended (and those who brought it up were attacked!).

          • jeffbb

            @Ray – I love that you knew exactly what @amos was thinking and exactly when he thought it! You must be psychic -but don’t worry, I won’t quote any verses about it.

            As as far as racisim, culture persuasion, etc. we have all seen it. I saw a lot of it in this video.

    • amos8

      You said: “if you didn’t get it, you don’t get it.” AND you said: “No us, no them”

      If that is the case, then I guess you are right, I don’t “get it” …

      I don’t get how you put “us” into the “get it” and “didn’t get it” camps … while simultaneously telling us there is “no us, no them”?

      You are saying there is a “get it” group of people and “don’t get it” group of people … an “us” people in the know that “get it” and “them” people that “don’t get it” all while saying there is “No us, no them”

      It is often hard, but not impossible, for people to see or admit their self-defeating assertions … let alone to handle it in the right way (e.g. w/o blaming others or avoiding), but please reconsider.

      Furthermore, please address the other contradiction (at least with Scripture) that was addressed earlier.

  • Joel Royce

    …..I’ve watched this a couple times, & read several threads…..

    not sure how anyone could conclude this was filmed @ Dem convention (‘help me, mega-church pastor’, ‘is a video-feed biblical’, etc)

    i think the one point amos makes that is valid is the blurring of the lines between the church & the least of these.

    with that, Propaganda shines a line on what Lesslie Newbigin calls the ‘domesticated gospel.’

    Christian’s are the body of Christ (i.e. missionaries) and are ALL called to go.

    • jeffbb

      This is only for clarification, not political debate: I think the “@Dem Convention” charge is from the attack on capitalism/success outside his realm of experience that makes the people, as he put it, “financially dependent.” That rubbed me a little wrong, too, as he seems to ignore financial dependence on the government, but I ignored the political stuff in my comment. What gets me the most is the “ya’ll should quit judging and just let me judge you” attitude.

  • jeffbb

    I do get the point – it’s a great point – but the delivery lacks A LOT. In fact, most of the delivery buries the nuggets that need to be heard. “There is no them, it’s us,” he says. Yet his speech is filled with “you” and he uses “we” versus “ya’ll” rather than using “us.” “We” should get it – he obviously already does. He speaks to us in the lingo of his ‘hood both saying and inferring that if we have any education contrary to his perspective, we are ignorant. Yet Paul said he became “all things to all men.” To the Greek, he spoke like a Greek, although he was from the Jewish ‘hood, rather than slamming them for their “Greekness.” Why? So that he might “win” rather than offend. if it is truly “us,” then drop the “you” and “ya’ll” and include yourself in the “us.”

  • rayraymoo8

    I can see why why many can’t get it. I truly hardly understand the message; I constantly have to listen and concentrate on the words and different figurative language that he consistently use. As to this being poetry, you have to be careful and what you think is right in what he is saying and what you know is right. Check your thoughts you gain from his speech. I certainly had to.

  • Annie

    This is beautiful….so moving…and it is truth.

  • Phil

    Right to the bone! We are us.Thank you Brother!

  • Cliff

    Wow! I want to march on Hollywierd. I want of send foreign aid to the city. I don’t want to be part of the problem, I want to be part of the solution. I got it. Christ got involved, he had sent many emissaries, most were killed. He came, He got involved, He got killed, He sent emissaries, most got killed. The world of evangelism is a dangerous place. The culture stinks. The courts stink. There are no judges in the land. From kindergarten on the culture is trying to corrupt our children. Politicians via political correctness are trying to make the unacceptable acceptable. The government through its welfare system is destroying families and enabling perverts to adopt and corrupt the children they adopt. Where is the virtue in this? There is however an us and them. There are those who are in Christ and oppose corruption of children, or anyone else, by being light; and there are those who are outside of Christ who support the things of this world. There is “us” in Christ, and there is “them” outside Christ. That is the only real division. Anything else is man made and divisive. So the light must shine in the darkness to eradicate the darkness. Christ is the light that shines in the world. He shines through us, bringing light to them, getting involved. I still want to take pitchforks to Hollyweird for the damage they do. But alas, I can’t.

  • Joe

    All the comments given is all the proof we need that we need a full scale Holy Spirit led revival in America. In my opinion everybody knows what the problem is… Too many talkers and too few walkers. Until the pro-claimers are doers the results will be the same. If mother Theresa got up and called for involvement in the down and out, spray paint “culture” we wouldn’t be having this conversation. If every Christian gets committed in a local church and stir the local church and lead the local church to action America will be shaken. So, please stop this “bite and devour” one another bickering and get involved – Be Blessed and do something for someone this week!

  • On God’s Path

    Well said! Systemic sin is both what we do and don’t do as a social group and is part of the human condition. It requires both human and divine action to eradicate.

  • USN(Ret)

    We has met the enemy, and he is us. – Pogo

  • pastortom

    Wowza…..nuff said. Amen

  • wordbased

    It has been my desire for some time now that the church gets the importance of “translating’ the gospel, not into Swahili or Objiwah, but into the street level lives of our neighbours. Outside of that, they don’t hear us.

  • Rodney

    Angry preaching-not sure it sheds light, but it does generate heat.